General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

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Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:43 pm

The part i had issue with is him always reporting to Accardo. Don't we have examples of the opposite, Accardo reporting to Ricca about his various issues in the 50s when he was Boss? I don't think what certain sources said about RIcca and Accardo make sense alongside the idea that Ricca was reporting to Accardo. Again just my opinion i'm willing to change it if there's further corroboration. Funnily enough i already did chance my view on this issue as i initially believed the Roemer, Accardo was the forever Boss and Ricca was just a figurehead narrative.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:32 pm

We have reason to believe he was already a high-ranking member and one of the most powerful figures in the Chicago Family before Capone became boss as Magaddino said at the 1931 post-war meeting when Salvatore LoVerde was boss that LoVerde represented the "greaseball" faction while Ricca attended to represent the "Americanized" faction. We also know he was negotiating with other national bosses during that time on Capone's behalf, including privately meeting with Gentile and Magaddino to gain their support. So he was already a peer of national leaders by mid-1931 even though we know positively he was not the boss at that time.

My own belief is when Capone transferred and became boss that Ricca was either underboss or perhaps consigliere / chairman as he would be later. Capone goes to prison and Ricca was possibly the acting boss although we have to consider Nitti too. Then around 1935 there is the vague issue between Ricca and the Commission, somehow involving Al Polizzi in Cleveland, which is serious enough that Polizzi could lose standing with the Commission for siding with Ricca. Capone might have been official boss still through most of the 1930s as even though DeRose was likely wrong when he said Capone was boss until his death, I believe it's possible if not likely Capone held the title prior to his health deteriorating. If Ricca did have a serious issue with the Commission that may play into what the "Amafa" source said about Ricca never being "sanctioned" as boss.

The "Amafa" source acknowledged the perception that Ricca was official boss ("contrary to popular belief") and he himself said Ricca "acted with all authority" even though he was never sanctioned as official boss. So he acknowledged that Ricca had the authority you'd expect of a boss yet felt the need to note that he never officially held the title. There is zero disagreement about Ricca's power and influence, the only question being the formal title he held or didn't hold.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:11 pm Who are the majority of sources though?

- Piscopo did believe Ricca was the boss which to me is the most significant source given his relationship to Roselli. He didn't elaborate though and we can't be sure if he was saying Ricca was the official boss or acting, only that Ricca was the "boss" and highest authority in the Family circa early 1940s. Did Roselli tell him "Ricca was official boss" or something more general like "Ricca is the one in charge / calling the shots"? These details matter when examining the formalities.

- Teddy DeRose said Al Capone was boss until he died, then Nitti became boss followed by Campagna for a short time, then Ricca and finally Accardo. His timeline is a mess though and I don't think anyone believes Capone was still official boss until 1947.

- Bill Bonanno's chart listing Ricca as a member of the Commission in 1931 just means Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission after Capone went to prison. I doubt Capone lost his title immediately after going to prison (much as Luciano didn't lose his a few years later) so in addition to other non-bosses serving as Commission representative in the boss's absence, it's unlikely to me that Capone was officially replaced that early. Interestingly, Piscopo in LA said he knew the consigliere could represent a Family on the Commission but didn't give examples.

Most of the other evidence is more anecdotal. And just to be clear, these examples are absolutely worth considering and are part of the conversation. The point is we lack a definite confirmation and there are alternate theories that also make sense as well as info that challenges the idea that Ricca was official boss.
I'm more talking about the sources referring to his significance after his release from prison, saying stuff like he has the final say in the room. It's tough for me to believe he ever reported to Accardo considering that which is why i'm skeptical of that source, i think they were either partners or Ricca was above him.

You're right that there's far less saying he was actually Boss though and i'm assuming that he was and that's why he had the significance later.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:11 pm

Who are the majority of sources though?

- Piscopo did believe Ricca was the boss which to me is the most significant source given his relationship to Roselli. He didn't elaborate though and we can't be sure if he was saying Ricca was the official boss or acting, only that Ricca was the "boss" and highest authority in the Family circa early 1940s. Did Roselli tell him "Ricca was official boss" or something more general like "Ricca is the one in charge / calling the shots"? These details matter when examining the formalities.

- Teddy DeRose said Al Capone was boss until he died, then Nitti became boss followed by Campagna for a short time, then Ricca and finally Accardo. His timeline is a mess though and I don't think anyone believes Capone was still official boss until 1947. Even if Capone lost his title earlier, like when his mental conditioned worsened, to consider his claim that Ricca was official boss we also have to consider the claim that there was an entire succession of bosses crammed into a relatively short time window.

- Bill Bonanno's chart listing Ricca as a member of the Commission in 1931 just means Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission after Capone went to prison. I doubt Capone lost his title immediately after going to prison (much as Luciano didn't lose his a few years later) so in addition to other non-bosses serving as Commission representative in the boss's absence, it's unlikely to me that Capone was officially replaced that early. Interestingly, Piscopo in LA said he knew the consigliere could represent a Family on the Commission but didn't give examples.

Most of the other evidence is more anecdotal. And just to be clear, these examples are absolutely worth considering and are part of the conversation. The point is we lack a definite confirmation and there are alternate theories that also make sense as well as info that challenges the idea that Ricca was official boss.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:54 pm

Thanks. I agree it should be part of the conversation but i still believe Ricca was likely Boss in the 30s/40s and was likely the most powerful figure for decades afterwards because that's what the majority of sources point towards. Just my opinion.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:48 pm

Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:45 pm
B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:39 pm I'm not adamant that Ricca was never boss only that it is not definitive like it is with other figures we can confirm were bosses, be it in Chicago or elsewhere. I do suspect Ricca was acting boss when Capone went to prison, acting bosses of course serving as Commission representatives in the boss's absence, but there was some unspecified national issue involving Ricca in the mid-1930s where he was at odds with the Commission and it was serious enough that Al Polizzi in Cleveland lost favor as well for his support of Ricca. This was mentioned in passing by Gentile and unfortunately he didn't elaborate but it could have impacted Ricca's standing if indeed he was in the running to become boss post-Capone. We do have sources who think he was boss and I would not discount them either -- the issue is we lack definitive info.

The point being made was that Chicago had a tradition of official bosses stepping down and taking on another role in the Family and it's important to note that two of the three examples may not have been official boss and we can't say with certainty that Chicago had a time-honored process where bosses step down and become consiglieri / council members / chairmen.

There isn't any definitive consensus on who occupied the official admin positions in the 1930s and first half of the 40s as we lack definitive sources, only passing references. I know that Antiliar for example believes Ricca was boss but that PolackTony and I are more agnostic in that we don't know for sure and are open to the possibility but also have some doubt. Again, by saying "we don't know for sure if Ricca was ever official boss" it should not be read as "RICCA WAS NEVER OFFICIAL BOSS" and my point is that because we can't definitively say he was official boss we can't necessarily use him as an example to prove a point about the boss / consigliere roles in Chicago.

Accardo proves that a former official boss could step down and sit on the consiglio and/or serve as consiglio chairman afterward much as John Alioto did in Milwaukee. We just don't know that this was an ongoing trend in Chicago beyond that.
Could you post the source that says Ricca was never Boss please?
I don't have the file on hand but here's an old summary:

- Said he never heard of the "Amafa" using the term Commission, but knew it was "the Round Table" and said they met in 1930 in Cincinatti or Cleveland (probably thinking of the 1928 Cleveland meeting). He said "the Round Table" sanctioned Tony Accardo as boss but said "contrary to popular belief" Paul Ricca was never in charge of "the Family" and always reported to Accardo even though he said Ricca sometimes "acted with all authority but was never sanctioned." Sounds like he believed Ricca was the acting boss but never official.

This source was of course imperfect but he had some interesting observations and his info is certainly part of the conversation. He noted that the local organization was referred to as "the Family", that the wider organization was called "Amafa" [ph. Obviously mafia], and that in addition to the boss being called "patrone" [padrone] there were "capitanos" [ph. the FBI was interpreting the word he said, so it could have been capodecina but it's obvious what's being referred to].

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:45 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:39 pm I'm not adamant that Ricca was never boss only that it is not definitive like it is with other figures we can confirm were bosses, be it in Chicago or elsewhere. I do suspect Ricca was acting boss when Capone went to prison, acting bosses of course serving as Commission representatives in the boss's absence, but there was some unspecified national issue involving Ricca in the mid-1930s where he was at odds with the Commission and it was serious enough that Al Polizzi in Cleveland lost favor as well for his support of Ricca. This was mentioned in passing by Gentile and unfortunately he didn't elaborate but it could have impacted Ricca's standing if indeed he was in the running to become boss post-Capone. We do have sources who think he was boss and I would not discount them either -- the issue is we lack definitive info.

The point being made was that Chicago had a tradition of official bosses stepping down and taking on another role in the Family and it's important to note that two of the three examples may not have been official boss and we can't say with certainty that Chicago had a time-honored process where bosses step down and become consiglieri / council members / chairmen.

There isn't any definitive consensus on who occupied the official admin positions in the 1930s and first half of the 40s as we lack definitive sources, only passing references. I know that Antiliar for example believes Ricca was boss but that PolackTony and I are more agnostic in that we don't know for sure and are open to the possibility but also have some doubt. Again, by saying "we don't know for sure if Ricca was ever official boss" it should not be read as "RICCA WAS NEVER OFFICIAL BOSS" and my point is that because we can't definitively say he was official boss we can't necessarily use him as an example to prove a point about the boss / consigliere roles in Chicago.

Accardo proves that a former official boss could step down and sit on the consiglio and/or serve as consiglio chairman afterward much as John Alioto did in Milwaukee. We just don't know that this was an ongoing trend in Chicago beyond that.
Could you post the source that says Ricca was never Boss please?

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:39 pm

I'm not adamant that Ricca was never boss only that it is not definitive like it is with other figures we can confirm were bosses, be it in Chicago or elsewhere. I do suspect Ricca was acting boss when Capone went to prison, acting bosses of course serving as Commission representatives in the boss's absence, but there was some unspecified national issue involving Ricca in the mid-1930s where he was at odds with the Commission and it was serious enough that Al Polizzi in Cleveland lost favor as well for his support of Ricca. This was mentioned in passing by Gentile and unfortunately he didn't elaborate but it could have impacted Ricca's standing if indeed he was in the running to become boss post-Capone. We do have sources who think he was boss and I would not discount them either -- the issue is we lack definitive info.

The point being made was that Chicago had a tradition of official bosses stepping down and taking on another role in the Family and it's important to note that two of the three examples may not have been official boss and we can't say with certainty that Chicago had a time-honored process where bosses step down and become consiglieri / council members / chairmen.

There isn't any definitive consensus on who occupied the official admin positions in the 1930s and first half of the 40s as we lack definitive sources, only passing references. I know that Antiliar for example believes Ricca was boss but that PolackTony and I are more agnostic in that we don't know for sure and are open to the possibility but also have some doubt. Again, by saying "we don't know for sure if Ricca was ever official boss" it should not be read as "RICCA WAS NEVER OFFICIAL BOSS" and my point is that because we can't definitively say he was official boss we can't necessarily use him as an example to prove a point about the boss / consigliere roles in Chicago.

Accardo proves that a former official boss could step down and sit on the consiglio and/or serve as consiglio chairman afterward much as John Alioto did in Milwaukee. We just don't know that this was an ongoing trend in Chicago beyond that.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Coloboy » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:02 pm

FWIW....it's news to me that there is any type of consensus that Ricca was never official boss. I would still assume the majority of folks think he occupied that seat at some point.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:00 pm

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:49 am
Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:39 am
NorthBuffalo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:35 am
Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:32 am Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission surely that would point to him being Boss in the 30s/40s at least? The others we know are Accardo and Giancana right while they were definitely Boss? Or are there others who weren't?
It was my impression that Ricca was always under Campagna, Nitti and guys like that in that era - I don't think being 'represented' at a commission meeting necessarily was reserved for a boss or a 'commission seat.' I think the boss could send an emissary like Ricca. I would find it rare that Chicago's bosses travelled themselves to the East for commission business - I think they often sent messengers.
Okay, there must be new information that has changed the opinion of the Chicago posters here which i've not seen which is fair. I can remember it being discussed whether Nitto was a Captain or Underboss in here, i don't remember Campagna ever being discussed as Boss.

Where is it mentioned that Ricca was sent as an emissary? Also why wouldn't Giancana do that then? Accardo had to convince Giancana to attend Commission Meetings as he had no interest in it.
There is also some doubt about whether Nitto was ever actually the boss, but I'll admit to not being an expert in that time period, so maybe Rick or Tony can chime in.
Yep. I know that it was "common knowledge" for a long time that Nitto was Boss which largely seemed to be a media assumption due to how close he was with Capone, then i think Roemer said it. However posters here like Antiliar and Villain i believe seriously questioned it and at least at one point people were wondering if he was Captain or Underboss instead. I understand this stuff isn't clear and views change all the time it's just if the majority are back to Nitto being Boss that's a definite shift.

I also don't remember Campagna ever being discussed as Boss only as a powerful figure and possible Captain but i could be wrong.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Snakes » Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:49 am

Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:39 am
NorthBuffalo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:35 am
Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:32 am Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission surely that would point to him being Boss in the 30s/40s at least? The others we know are Accardo and Giancana right while they were definitely Boss? Or are there others who weren't?
It was my impression that Ricca was always under Campagna, Nitti and guys like that in that era - I don't think being 'represented' at a commission meeting necessarily was reserved for a boss or a 'commission seat.' I think the boss could send an emissary like Ricca. I would find it rare that Chicago's bosses travelled themselves to the East for commission business - I think they often sent messengers.
Okay, there must be new information that has changed the opinion of the Chicago posters here which i've not seen which is fair. I can remember it being discussed whether Nitto was a Captain or Underboss in here, i don't remember Campagna ever being discussed as Boss.

Where is it mentioned that Ricca was sent as an emissary? Also why wouldn't Giancana do that then? Accardo had to convince Giancana to attend Commission Meetings as he had no interest in it.
There is also some doubt about whether Nitto was ever actually the boss, but I'll admit to not being an expert in that time period, so maybe Rick or Tony can chime in.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:39 am

NorthBuffalo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:35 am
Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:32 am Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission surely that would point to him being Boss in the 30s/40s at least? The others we know are Accardo and Giancana right while they were definitely Boss? Or are there others who weren't?
It was my impression that Ricca was always under Campagna, Nitti and guys like that in that era - I don't think being 'represented' at a commission meeting necessarily was reserved for a boss or a 'commission seat.' I think the boss could send an emissary like Ricca. I would find it rare that Chicago's bosses travelled themselves to the East for commission business - I think they often sent messengers.
Okay, there must be new information that has changed the opinion of the Chicago posters here which i've not seen which is fair. I can remember it being discussed whether Nitto was a Captain or Underboss in here, i don't remember Campagna ever being discussed as Boss.

Where is it mentioned that Ricca was sent as an emissary? Also why wouldn't Giancana do that then? Accardo had to convince Giancana to attend Commission Meetings as he had no interest in it.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Coloboy » Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:35 am

I would also add that there is solid evidence to support the idea that Ricca and Accardo served as co-chairman, or split the top duties, in the period between 1966 and Ricca's death in 1972. I come back to the FBI transcript of the meeting following Ricca's death, where Accardo tells Aiuppa and Gus Alex that "no one will be replacing Ricca in his role", seemingly indicating that it was an offical position. It was supposedly in this meeting where it was laid out (by Accardo, according to the source), that Aiuppa would be running things with help from Gus Alex.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:35 am

Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:32 am Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission surely that would point to him being Boss in the 30s/40s at least? The others we know are Accardo and Giancana right while they were definitely Boss? Or are there others who weren't?
It was my impression that Ricca was always under Campagna, Nitti and guys like that in that era - I don't think being 'represented' at a commission meeting necessarily was reserved for a boss or a 'commission seat.' I think the boss could send an emissary like Ricca. I would find it rare that Chicago's bosses travelled themselves to the East for commission business - I think they often sent messengers.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:32 am

Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission surely that would point to him being Boss in the 30s/40s at least? The others we know are Accardo and Giancana right while they were definitely Boss? Or are there others who weren't?

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