by Coloboy » Tue Jun 03, 2025 8:44 am
VC2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 7:10 am
these are all very good points and examples, thank you lads. as to the formal aspect of the possibility of a council, i dont think it existed in same context as years previous in chicago. i also dont see it similar to the ruling panels or committees a la bonnanos etc.my theory of the council is that it existed permanently so as to assure transition from one admin to other and settle high-level disputes amongst capos, decide on any murders etc. but one of the subjects concerning the outfit in 90s post accardo and into the 2000s that has consistently confused me and others is the persistent references to "high-level advisors" or the oft repeated and dreaded amongst outfit researchers, "consiglieres".
the consensus on BH is that the outfit never had a position of consigliere, in same context as other american crime families, an opinion i share. we know that some media/press couldnt help inserting consigliere into articles and stories concerning some senior respected outfit leaders over the years; difronzo, lombardo, tornabene, lapietra, andriacchi, d'amico, delaurentis and likely more i have forgot. authors have continued this across many books as well, likely out of a misunderstanding of structure of outfit.
so i suppose there are a few options;
1. the outfit never had a consigliere, in same context as say a NY crime family, or at all.
2. the outfit had a permanent yet informal ruling council instead of a consigliere/underboss approx. 1997-2014
3. the oft repeated names;difronzo, lombardo, tornabene etc only ever attained ranks that we know of and "if" they advised anyone it was on a case to case basis with no ruling council of any kind in place either formally or informally.
a problem with this 3rd option is although consensus appears to be difronzo turned down boss spot in 1997, there continues to be a belief that he was still a high level leader of some kind in outfit on par in rank with the boss or according to some on a level above the boss, but not consigliere. so what would this position, rank or title be? same could be said about lombardo and tornabene.
i suppose a 4th option would be the outfit was even more erratic in naming a consigliere than even michael mancuso and his "musical consiglieres" of late 2010s. however for such an experienced group of respected mafia leaders in chicago i see this as a near impossibility.
I know others are going to eye roll at this convo
, but it's still an interesting topic to me so I'll chime in.
I would highly suggest the "Mob Archeologists" show on youtube for this topic. PolackTony, Snakes, and others on this thread created it. I'm hoping one of them can point you specifically to the episode that discusses the role of consigliere for the outfit. These guys are very good at using whatever little hard evidence is out there to support claims without venturing too far into pure speculation.
I would agree with you that this position in the outfit is not exactly the same as the NY families, where its rank is typically considered to be below that of boss. However, there are several similarities. This person serves as an advisor to the boss, and likely as a communication conduit between members and the boss. In Chicago, I would argue that whatever you want to call this position (it has been referred to at various times as consigliere, top boss, senior advisor, chairman of the board, the old man, and others), it seemed to come with a unique level of respect and authority in the Chicago family as compared to other LCN groups.
While the details might always remain murky, there is strong evidence that at least at it's peak, the Outfit retained some type of board of directors, likely constituted of various capos, and occasionally other senior members. This board likely served in part, as a check and balance against the power of the boss, to ensure a single person couldn't run the organization like a tyrant. The consigliere, or whatever you want to refer to it as, likely sat on the board as the "chairman", or most senior member, therefore retaining significant power both with the boss himself and with senior level membership.
Whatever the official "roles" were, one always has to take into consideration the actual defacto power someone like Ricca, Accardo, and even Difronzo would possess, regardless of their intended role. All these guys were former bosses, lifelong criminals, with massive social networks embedded deep into the outfit (as well into the larger italian american social fabric), possessed huge financial resources, and retained extensive connections in the criminal and legitimate world. No matter who was officially considered more "senior" (boss vs. consigliere), those backgrounds are always going to get you a high level of respect.
Lastly, the only thing I would push back on is that based on prior Outfit history, my belief is that Carlisi did not retain the title of boss following his 1992 arrest, and that Difronzo, who authorities had already described as "running day to day operations" going back to at least 1989, became either acting or offical boss at this time. So by 1997, instead of "turning down" the role of boss, I believe he vacated it in favor of Monteleone, and assumed the chairman role at that point. Some of this is supported by Frank Calabrese's recorded convos with his son. There is relatively strong evidence to support the notion that Andriacchi was acting boss for Difronzo during No Nose's brief sting in prison during the 93-94 period. This all opinion of course based on a compilation of whatever sources and information there are.
[quote=VC2 post_id=294959 time=1748959848 user_id=8803]
these are all very good points and examples, thank you lads. as to the formal aspect of the possibility of a council, i dont think it existed in same context as years previous in chicago. i also dont see it similar to the ruling panels or committees a la bonnanos etc.my theory of the council is that it existed permanently so as to assure transition from one admin to other and settle high-level disputes amongst capos, decide on any murders etc. but one of the subjects concerning the outfit in 90s post accardo and into the 2000s that has consistently confused me and others is the persistent references to "high-level advisors" or the oft repeated and dreaded amongst outfit researchers, "consiglieres".
the consensus on BH is that the outfit never had a position of consigliere, in same context as other american crime families, an opinion i share. we know that some media/press couldnt help inserting consigliere into articles and stories concerning some senior respected outfit leaders over the years; difronzo, lombardo, tornabene, lapietra, andriacchi, d'amico, delaurentis and likely more i have forgot. authors have continued this across many books as well, likely out of a misunderstanding of structure of outfit.
so i suppose there are a few options;
1. the outfit never had a consigliere, in same context as say a NY crime family, or at all.
2. the outfit had a permanent yet informal ruling council instead of a consigliere/underboss approx. 1997-2014
3. the oft repeated names;difronzo, lombardo, tornabene etc only ever attained ranks that we know of and "if" they advised anyone it was on a case to case basis with no ruling council of any kind in place either formally or informally.
a problem with this 3rd option is although consensus appears to be difronzo turned down boss spot in 1997, there continues to be a belief that he was still a high level leader of some kind in outfit on par in rank with the boss or according to some on a level above the boss, but not consigliere. so what would this position, rank or title be? same could be said about lombardo and tornabene.
i suppose a 4th option would be the outfit was even more erratic in naming a consigliere than even michael mancuso and his "musical consiglieres" of late 2010s. however for such an experienced group of respected mafia leaders in chicago i see this as a near impossibility.
[/quote]
I know others are going to eye roll at this convo :) , but it's still an interesting topic to me so I'll chime in.
I would highly suggest the "Mob Archeologists" show on youtube for this topic. PolackTony, Snakes, and others on this thread created it. I'm hoping one of them can point you specifically to the episode that discusses the role of consigliere for the outfit. These guys are very good at using whatever little hard evidence is out there to support claims without venturing too far into pure speculation.
I would agree with you that this position in the outfit is not exactly the same as the NY families, where its rank is typically considered to be below that of boss. However, there are several similarities. This person serves as an advisor to the boss, and likely as a communication conduit between members and the boss. In Chicago, I would argue that whatever you want to call this position (it has been referred to at various times as consigliere, top boss, senior advisor, chairman of the board, the old man, and others), it seemed to come with a unique level of respect and authority in the Chicago family as compared to other LCN groups.
While the details might always remain murky, there is strong evidence that at least at it's peak, the Outfit retained some type of board of directors, likely constituted of various capos, and occasionally other senior members. This board likely served in part, as a check and balance against the power of the boss, to ensure a single person couldn't run the organization like a tyrant. The consigliere, or whatever you want to refer to it as, likely sat on the board as the "chairman", or most senior member, therefore retaining significant power both with the boss himself and with senior level membership.
Whatever the official "roles" were, one always has to take into consideration the actual defacto power someone like Ricca, Accardo, and even Difronzo would possess, regardless of their intended role. All these guys were former bosses, lifelong criminals, with massive social networks embedded deep into the outfit (as well into the larger italian american social fabric), possessed huge financial resources, and retained extensive connections in the criminal and legitimate world. No matter who was officially considered more "senior" (boss vs. consigliere), those backgrounds are always going to get you a high level of respect.
Lastly, the only thing I would push back on is that based on prior Outfit history, my belief is that Carlisi did not retain the title of boss following his 1992 arrest, and that Difronzo, who authorities had already described as "running day to day operations" going back to at least 1989, became either acting or offical boss at this time. So by 1997, instead of "turning down" the role of boss, I believe he vacated it in favor of Monteleone, and assumed the chairman role at that point. Some of this is supported by Frank Calabrese's recorded convos with his son. There is relatively strong evidence to support the notion that Andriacchi was acting boss for Difronzo during No Nose's brief sting in prison during the 93-94 period. This all opinion of course based on a compilation of whatever sources and information there are.