THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:44 pm Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

I suppose he could have been acting since Joey was indicted. The Strawman indictments came out very close the 1983 ceremony (either right before or right after) and Aiuppa was there. I can definitely see him handling some of his business while Aiuppa and Cerone were tied up in legal stuff.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:44 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:44 pm Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

The FBI didn’t even list Carlisi as made until after he was already official boss. They probably were aware of him but clearly didn’t have a source to list him as a member.

That's like ultimate gangster achievement right there. Reach the rank of Boss without the Feds even having you listed as made. Low key as fuck.

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:44 pm Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

The FBI didn’t even list Carlisi as made until after he was already official boss. They probably were aware of him but clearly didn’t have a source to list him as a member.

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:29 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:43 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:44 pm Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

Associate?

Yes, definitely not made. I’m guessing Carlisi was probably probably at least acting boss since the indictments. Just crazy how the Feds never knew it until years later.

Yea Chicago and the Genovese really did a great job of hiding leadership roles from the feds. Amazing efforts in secrecy and misdirections.

funkster wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:43 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:44 pm Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

Associate?

Yes, definitely not made. I’m guessing Carlisi was probably probably at least acting boss since the indictments. Just crazy how the Feds never knew it until years later.

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:44 pm Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

Associate?

Is 1986 the official year Carlisi was made boss? The reason I ask bc I was recently told by an old member of his crew that he was boss before that, maybe 1983 or 1984 which would make sense considering the strawman case had Joey O tied up with the indictment.

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 2:44 pm Amazing guys. A question I always have when people talk about a Chicago boss in the 70s and 80s: was Accardo a boss or was he more like a Consigliere?

Consig

Amazing guys. A question I always have when people talk about a Chicago boss in the 70s and 80s: was Accardo a boss or was he more like a Consigliere?

I will also contend that it's possible DiFronzo stepped back sooner than 1997, which would mean Monteleone became boss/acting boss a year or two earlier. The earliest I can find for Monteleone as boss is 1997, though, but I may check again.

The only thing working against Carlisi losing the boss position is that he was actively pursuing an appeal until he died, probably hoping that he can remain as boss (although still playing a less active role). Additionally, there were not many guys on the street able to contest that decision if true, as almost everyone of stature was in prison. LaPietra was out by '95 and there was informant noise that he'd take over as boss upon his release, but that was apparently never acted upon. If his parole restrictions were as tight as Lombardo's that was probably as good a reason as any.

Louis Eboli headed the Grand Ave crew when Lombardo went away. There's some speculation that he was an acting capo, but I haven't seen evidence for it. He was apparently followed by Tony Centracchio. In the Family Secrets trial it came out that Lombardo had been shelved, but we don't know when. It could have been as early as when he went prison, and if so, it could be due to when he told the KC boss or underboss to "shit or get off the pot." About ten years later Willie Messino was demoted for the same reason.

Also, this timeline only furthers my curiosity regarding Lombardo' status post prison release in 1994. The most likely scenario seems to be boss of the grand ave crew only. If the theory is that Difronzo was consigliere as early as 97 that doesn't leave that spot open for Lombardo. He was close with Difronzo growing up, and although there is not any evidence of them socializing or meeting in the 90's and beyond, one has to imagine they retained a line of communication giving Lombardo some degree of influence over outfit affairs.

Yes! I've been away from checking the forum for a while but have been waiting for this post for a long time!

Great work, @snakes. You state the argument clearly with plenty of supporting evidence. Very impressive. I think you nailed it here.

Fills in a lot of puzzles. There are plenty of sources indicating Difronzo still retained some status beyond 1997. (The Sarno tribute thing, Paulie C being scared to piss him off with the Melrose Park car dealer debacle, his openly meeting with members of the EP crew on film, the FBI report of him meeting with members of Grand Ave in 2006, etc). The consigliere role makes a lot of sense, simliar to Joe B in the 70s and 80s. For all we know, Andriacchi could still hold the consigliere position to this day.

We will likely never have full insight into this, but I wonder if Difronzo was acting or official between 93-97 when Carlisi was in prison. There is a lot of evidence from the 60s and 70s that indicates outfit bosses didn't retain their positions during periods of incarceration, but anything is possible.

Great analysis.

So it was in that time period that Solly D was first mentioned as boss or acting boss. Then Vena started being mentioned as street boss a year or so later

I think it was 2012 or 2013 that The DiFronzos and probably others had Solly D take care of a problem between the newSarno loyalists and the older Outfit members. That was according to Scott Burnstein. Then I want to say it was 2014 Fosco reported that Andriachi was taking over the spot of the man or consiglieri from John DiFronzo because of DiFronzo having Alzheimers