Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

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Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Angelo Santino » Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:01 am

The Mineo link between the Colombos and Gambinos is still very confusing.

1 Salvatore Mumbrao for starters. Al/Sal rhyme and "Mumbrao" was likely the Agent phonetically writing what Attardi said. Did Attardi say "Mum-Brow" or "Mum-bray-o"? We can't definitively confirm it but it does indeed sound like Mineo was indeed "Mumbrao."

2 We know in 1912 Mineo and D'Aquila were head of separate families. We don't know if the Gambinos were broken up or if Mineo was allowed to form his own thing. His HQ's during that time was on Oak Street dead smack in Gambino territory going back to the 1870's.

So at some point it appears that Mineo vacated Boss of the Colombos to be D'Aquila's Underboss. But we don't know when, two decades is a long time and almost everything we know of these men could be written on a single page. And given we have no informants who provided insight into this, I think it's safe to say there is alot that we don't know.

There is one single example from the Sangiorgi of the Boss of Perpignano simultaneously being the underboss of Passo di Rigano. That came from Siino himself but in the annals of history, we don't generally see this so I'm not suggesting this was the arrangement between D'Aquila and Mineo but I thought I would throw that out there.

Beyond all this, the Gambinos and Colombos have always enjoyed a close relationship, both in territory and genealogy. Before 1912 there was one stream of Palermitans to flow on, after 1912 there were two streams.

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Ivan » Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:50 am

PolackTony wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:10 pm ttardi may have well been saying “Manfredo”. Replacement of an unvoiced by a voiced consonant (here, f >>> v) is common in Sicilian dialetti. Hence, to Anderson’s ears, Manfredi could very likely have sounded something like “Mahm-VRAY-oh”, which he then wrote as “Mambrao” (I’ve also seen attestations of speakers in Sicily realizing “v” somewhat similar to Spanish, sort of between a fricative and a plosive).
Thank you for this contribution to solving the mystery of the seemingly random alveolar approximant. Do you have linguistics training, either formal or self taught? Sounds like you know your shit. 8-)

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by chin_gigante » Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:51 am

Antiliar wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:11 pm Here is the 2-page long article:
Thanks for posting that! I'd never seen it before

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Antiliar » Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:31 pm

Manfredi Mineo's death certificate:
Mineo, Manfredi - Death Cert edit.jpg

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Antiliar » Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:11 pm

Here is the 2-page long article:
Parade 1968Jan28 p1 Jim Carra.jpg
Parade 1968Jan28 p2 Jim Carra.jpg

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by PolackTony » Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:10 pm

Ivan wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:50 am
B. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:54 am Re: "Mumbrao", while no it isn't definitive there are notable phonetic similarities to "Mineo"
bilabial consonants at beginning of first and second syllables, identical terminal vowels

insertion of alveolar approximant is odd but otherwise close match
Peter Sardini, the death row inmate who was the source for the Peraino hit, claimed that Musacchio was ordered to carry out the hit by a boss named “Manfredo”.

Manfredo and Manfredi are of course the same name, so that’s not really even an error. Manfredo is the Italian version and Manfredi the Sicilian version. Given that Mineo was educated and had ties to Northern Italy, he presumably used both versions.

I don’t have a copy of the Parade article with Anderson’s interview of “Jim Carra” (Attardi). IIRC, however, Anderson gave the name of the boss killed in 1930 by Maranzano’s as “Mambrao”, rather than “Mumbrao”.

Either way, Attardi may have well been saying “Manfredo”. Replacement of an unvoiced by a voiced consonant (here, f >>> v) is common in Sicilian dialetti. Hence, to Anderson’s ears, Manfredi could very likely have sounded something like “Mahm-VRAY-oh”, which he then wrote as “Mambrao” (I’ve also seen attestations of speakers in Sicily realizing “v” somewhat similar to Spanish, sort of between a fricative and a plosive).

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by HairyKnuckles » Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:08 am

Some of the things talked about in that Attardi interview makes your head turn. Was Attardi lying or did he give an incomplete story and Jack Anderson took the liberty to fill in the blanks?

About the numbers, it´s written that the Family Attardi belonged to (the Gambino Family) was the smallest of the New York based Families, which is certainly inaccurate.

On Mambrao, it says "D'Aguila was murdered by his own underboss, Salvatore Mambrao, who himself became the first victim of another gang war declared by Salvatore Maranzano." We know that Mineo was killed early 1931 and yet, Attardi claims the warfare ended with a peace treaty worked out in Atlantic City in 1929. "Carra was in the thick of the street warfare. ""I was one of about 50 men,""he said, ""that had been marked to be killed by the Maranzano gunmen."" Then in 1929, the top gang leaders held a peace conference in Atlantic City, divided up the territories and put the Mafia on a more businesslike basis."

On one occasion, Lucky Luciano is refered to as "boss of the bosses", which is inaccurate.

But the most surprising story in the interview is Attardi´s claim that Anastasia secretly tape recordered Mangano so that he could set him up for execiution. ""Under the terms of the Atlantic City peace conference, gangsters were forbidden to gun down one another without cause. However, the cunning Anastasia had a plan. Carrying a concealed microphone, he called upon Mangano in his Brooklyn office and carefully guided the discussion. The conversation was recorded by some of Anastasia's guys who were sitting in Anastasia's car,"" reported Carra. The Murder, Inc. chieftain then took parts of Mangano's conversation out of context, re-recorded them and presented them to the top Mafia leaders. Fooled, they issued a contract for Mangano's death."
- Yeah right.

The article ends with "Carra has throat cancer. He can no longer speak without the aid of an electric voice box, which magnifies and somewhat distorts the vibrations of his vocal cords."
- Could it be that Jack Anderson simply misheard names and words mentioned by Attardi using that electric voice box when speaking? I guess we´ll never know.

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by PolackTony » Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:41 pm

Ivan wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:17 pm
B. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:13 pm I favor the idea that it is him, that is all, but would be open to other candidates if they presented themselves.
Wasn't the first name of "Mumbrao" given as Salvatore? I remember back in like the 90s that Mineo was always called "Salvatore Mineo", with "Manfredi" being added later by researchers. (I don't recall ever seeing "Manfredi" before like 2010.) Actually "Al Mineo" was even more common than "Salvatore Mineo." (Did people really call him "Al"? Where'd that and the "Salvatore" version come from?)
The papers called him “Alfred Mineo” when he was killed in 1930. To be clear, in case anyone reading this is confused, his actual name was Manfredi Mineo, and presumably used “Alfred/Al” as an English name (though he used Manfredi in all of the documents of his that I’ve seen).

Manfredi >>> Alfred

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Antiliar » Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:11 pm

Ivan wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:17 pm
B. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:13 pm I favor the idea that it is him, that is all, but would be open to other candidates if they presented themselves.
It's fine, I won't hold this against you or anything.

Wasn't the first name of "Mumbrao" given as Salvatore? I remember back in like the 90s that Mineo was always called "Salvatore Mineo", with "Manfredi" being added later by researchers. (I don't recall ever seeing "Manfredi" before like 2010.) Actually "Al Mineo" was even more common than "Salvatore Mineo." (Did people really call him "Al"? Where'd that and the "Salvatore" version come from?)
Salvatore Mumbrao comes from Attardi and Al Mineo from Valachi. Gentile, who was a friend of Attardi, called him Manfre.

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Ivan » Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:17 pm

B. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:13 pm I favor the idea that it is him, that is all, but would be open to other candidates if they presented themselves.
It's fine, I won't hold this against you or anything.

Wasn't the first name of "Mumbrao" given as Salvatore? I remember back in like the 90s that Mineo was always called "Salvatore Mineo", with "Manfredi" being added later by researchers. (I don't recall ever seeing "Manfredi" before like 2010.) Actually "Al Mineo" was even more common than "Salvatore Mineo." (Did people really call him "Al"? Where'd that and the "Salvatore" version come from?)

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by B. » Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:13 pm

My mind is open so I'm not sure what the angle is here. We're all theorizing based on limited evidence. Mineo is the most likely candidate and there are no other known candidates who have a name that resembles Mumbrao, were linked to D'Aquila's murder, and were killed by Maranzano during the Castellammarese War. I favor the idea that it is him, that is all, but would be open to other candidates if they presented themselves.

The relationships between the Palermitani were complex, as evidenced by Mineo's Palermo-based brother-in-law Grillo being a strong ally of D'Aquila and Grillo also providing protection to Lupo in the 1920s when D'Aquila wanted to kill him. Who knows how Mineo presented himself on the surface at this time and how these other relationships and politics influenced what took place. Giuseppe Morello went from a former boss of one Family to an admin member of another Family around this time and many changes we're taking place.

A theory that Mineo stepped down or was deposed as boss and joined his rival's Family, with someone like Grillo influencing the arrangement, is not unrealistic. I'm reminded of Bruno and JB Indelicato joining Massino's decina after he helped kill Sonny Red, though that is an internal Family example. Either way if we are talking precedent, it is equally viable to the idea of a boss not only transferring membership but also his boss title in one swoop. It would make sense that he joined D'Aquila's Family and spent some time as a member then underboss before taking over the Family rather than the Colombo boss immediately swinging over to become Gambino boss without interruption.

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Ivan » Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:50 pm

PolackTony wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:31 pm
Ivan wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:50 am
B. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:54 am Re: "Mumbrao", while no it isn't definitive there are notable phonetic similarities to "Mineo"
bilabial consonants at beginning of first and second syllables, identical terminal vowels

insertion of alveolar approximant is odd but otherwise close match
Recall also that this was per the transcription from the journalist who interviewed Attardi for Parade Magazine in 1968, so who knows how faithful he was phonetically to what he thought he heard Attardi say. I’m not aware that Jack Anderson spoke Italian, for example.
Thanks Tony. Based on what Rick said (thanks Rick!) and this, I'm going to put down "Mumbrao" as a separate person with "name phonetic, possibly same person as Manfredi Mineo" because it looks like what we know makes him possibly one and the same but not probably. Available evidence does not push the same-person theory into the realm of probability in my estimation. Sorry not sorry.

"Mumbrao" of course is not a real Italian name and gets zero google hits other than an empty Facebook profile. (If you search for it, Google thinks you're misspelling "Mumbai.") This suggests that Anderson had little acquaintance with Italian phonology and names. "Mumbrao" makes it seem like his understanding of it was about on par with people who think Chinese sounds like "ching chong ching chong".

Agree that he does sound like a competent journalist, getting a Pulitzer back when that meant something (they now give it out for retarded shit like Russiagate).

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by PolackTony » Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:31 pm

Ivan wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:50 am
B. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:54 am Re: "Mumbrao", while no it isn't definitive there are notable phonetic similarities to "Mineo"
bilabial consonants at beginning of first and second syllables, identical terminal vowels

insertion of alveolar approximant is odd but otherwise close match
Recall also that this was per the transcription from the journalist who interviewed Attardi for Parade Magazine in 1968, so who knows how faithful he was phonetically to what he thought he heard Attardi say. I’m not aware that Jack Anderson spoke Italian, for example.

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Antiliar » Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:03 pm

Ivan wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:36 pm So when I make the final version of this when I get a minute, should I add Guiseppe Esposito and Gaetano Russo as "possible" Palermitani Family bosses before Taranto? Or is that going to far?
I don't think either one were likely bosses in New York. Esposito is a possible early New Orleans boss, but I don't think Russo was ever a boss. If he was ever a boss I think it would have more likely to have been Chicago or some other Midwestern city. I primarily imagine him as a *possible* planter who helped set up borgate in different cities, but that's pure speculation on my part.

Re: Complete lists of pre-1931 bosses of all NY families?

by Antiliar » Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:54 pm

While we agree that Mineo seems to be the most likely candidate, there are problematic issues not only with the name (which Attardi could have misremembered), but also the scenario of one boss becoming the underboss of the boss he went to war against. Why would a boss demote to take a high-ranking position in a rival borgata? While I can imagine a scenario where Mineo was on the losing end of the war and as a peace measure he agreed to demote and serve D'Aquila, why wouldn't D'Aquila just kill him? And wouldn't D'Aquila be putting himself at risk by doing that? So the scenario is fraught with problems. Yet, despite its problems it can't be ruled out since in real life people often make poor decisions.

Nevertheless Mineo, based on the very incomplete evidence that we have, seems to be the only one who fits. Still, because we lack a lot of relevant information we should keep an open mind to the possibility that Mumbrao could be someone else.

It should also be kept in mind that the journalist in question was no slouch. Jack Anderson was a Pulitzer Prize winner, the Washington bureau chief for Parade magazine, and one of the inventors of modern investigative journalism. While mistakes are possible, he had a reputation of being careful and following the evidence wherever it led.

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