Gangland September 28th 2023

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Expand view Topic review: Gangland September 28th 2023

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by johnny_scootch » Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:57 pm

chin_gigante wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:40 pm Also if they were originally made as part of an unrecognised Scarfo faction, it would explain why they were re-inducted rather than just transferred.
That must be where I have things wrong, Persiano Piccolo and the rest were never actually part of the Lucchese family. They were made in an invalid ceremony on orders of Scarfo Sr but only ever considered associates of Scarfo Jr. So Philly making them go through a legitimate ceremony makes sense in this scenario.

I had to look back and it was Scott’s Gangster Report that said Persiano had been inducted into the Lucchese family and was part of their New Jersey faction. I had it in my head Persiano being made in Philly was actually his third making ceremony smh

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by B. » Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:55 am

I agree with everything Chin said.

Interestingly there was a guy on the Real Deal who rarely posted and I don't remember the exact year but it was between 2006-2009. He said Sammy Piccolo had been made and was running around South Jersey. This guy never made outlandish claims and at that time Sammy Piccolo's name was never discussed -- I only knew of him because of the drug case from the early 90s when Wayne Grande flipped on him. The poster didn't say he was made with the Luccheses and seemed to imply Piccolo was made with Philly.

It does appear Piccolo and the others were initially made into a Scarfo faction that was unrecognized by the main Philly Family. Where things get murky is that we know Amuso recognized Scarfo as the official boss and did not recognize Merlino. Did the Luccheses recognize the inductees brought in by the Scarfo faction? It's possible but we also know that despite supporting Scarfo as boss, the Luccheses took issue with Scarfo Jr. for trying to retake Philly and if I remember the Perna tapes right this was one of the reasons he was taken down as captain.

My reading of certain parts of the Stefanelli tapes suggested to me too that the Merlino-Ligambi group saw Scarfo Jr. and his associates as still belonging to the Philadelphia Family and took issue with Scarfo Jr. being made into the Luccheses. They likely had a valid argument -- those guys were all originally associates of the Philly Family and when the Merlino-Ligambi regime took over they didn't "release" them so if they viewed themselves as the rightful heirs of Philly those guys should still be "with" them.

It's not unlike discussions we've had about the Bonanno and Lucchese Families during the Castellammarese War as far as the politics and rules are concerned. There could have been similar issues in Chicago in the late 1920s and early 1930s too.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by SonnyBlackstein » Sat Sep 30, 2023 8:37 pm

furiofromnaples wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:25 pm Any recent photos of Massino?
Think before you speak.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by furiofromnaples » Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:25 pm

Any recent photos of Massino?

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by chin_gigante » Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:40 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:35 am
chin_gigante wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:44 pm
Would also depend if the Lucchese family approved the inductions of Scarfo Jr's guys or if it was just Scarfo Sr who gave the okay. On the Stefanelli tapes, they talk about Scarfo Jr trying to recruit Philly guys to his side, like Joey Grande. They talk about how Scarfo Jr offered to make Grande a captain and clarify that he wasn't talking about a captain with the Lucchese family, but rather a captain under his father Scarfo Sr.
You know what Chin maybe I have it all mixed up but I thought Scarfo Jr made Persiano but it was considered invalid and so the Lucchese family wanting to keep Scarfo’s guys made him officially into their family. Then he gets transferred to Philly but instead of just introducing him around as a friend in their family they actually make him go through another ceremony needlessly.
I think there's a decent argument to be made that Pelullo, Persiano, and Scarfo could have originally been inducted as unrecognised Philadelphia family members who still regarded Scarfo Sr as the boss.

In 2019, in one of their Mob Talk Sitdowns, Anastasia and Schratwieser discussed the original ceremony and they noted some interesting things that could support this theory:

- The ceremony took place in the late 2000s
- Four guys were inducted, including Pelullo, Persiano, and Piccolo
- The inductions were approved by Scarfo Sr from behind bars
- Induction was a reward for their involvement in the First Plus scam
- The ceremony was conducted by an "old timer"
- Schratwieser initially says they were made into the Lucchese family but Anastasia steps in and says it's not clear if they were made with the Lucchese family, the Philadelphia family, or just "in their own mind"

These segments from the Stefanelli tapes also makes it clear Scarfo Jr was trying to recruit Joey Grande by telling him Scarfo Sr was still the boss of the Philadelphia family and that the Merlino-Ligambi administration wasn't recognised:
SL: What they said to JOE GRANDE, and, they gave him this 700…

LF: They told him…

SL: JOE, you’re on the wrong side. We’re the guys.

LF: You’re on the wrong side. We’re the guys, that them guys ain’t being recognised. So ANTHONY was mad because of that. We said ANT, don’t be mad, ‘cause of that, ‘cause he’s only telling what he’s being told.

NS: (UI)

LF: We weren’t being recognised by them.

SL: Yeah. And we don’t care. And I told yous that. I said…

[…]

SL: I said nobody’s payin’ ‘em any mind. And forget about it, I says. I said, first of all, they gave JOEY 700. I said, you know, that’s why I wanna see JOEY. ‘Cause JOEY said to them, eh, JOEY was honest. He said, listen, I met them at (UI), ‘cause JOEY made, ah, LANCE come or whatever, and he introduced ‘em, and this and that. Follow me? I met them, they got their own thing. That’s why I wanna see JOE and tell JOE, don’t let them brainwash ya. Don’t meet them no more. I know JOE LIGAMBI. When you go there for the first time, they give ya spin, ‘cause he wanted to get some money off ‘em. They gave him shit. Tell ‘em to stick their money up their ass. You got nuttin’. You’re here. We’re all one, and that’s it. Now we’re, where’s he going now? Now, it’s all over with?

LF: NICKY told, NICKY told him… Listen, who the fuck is NICKY to say what he’s gonna do for him…

SL: Yeah.

LF: …all he says, I’m, I’ll, You know, we’ll make you, and he wasn’t talking about makin’ with the LUCCHESE.

SL: Yeah. I’ll make you a captain with my father.

LF: With us. But he says he’ll make you a captain with my father…
Then there's this part from the 2015 ceremony:
ML: You’ll all get introduced. You’ll get introduced to everybody. But ah we’re all one family. This is the only flag around. This is it, this is Philly and that’s it. Joe, do you want to say something? Anybody want to say anything?
I could be wrong, but it seems to me Lancellotti is basically saying there that this is the only Philadelphia family and forget anyone else who claims to be (i.e. Scarfo). It reminds me of when Ralph Natale was caught on tape in the late 1990s when Scarfo was first trying to re-assert his authority: "The kid who runs it [the Genovese family] now told him [Scarfo] there's only one boss in Philadelphia, and that's Ralph Natale. And that's where the fuck it's at."

Also if they were originally made as part of an unrecognised Scarfo faction, it would explain why they were re-inducted rather than just transferred.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by BobbyPazzo » Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:21 am

Dr031718 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:27 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:34 pm
Cheech wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:07 pm No. He means in the article this week. Capeci says he ran into ny mobsters who turned and are murderers like him or something.
Ooooo I see it now. I skimmed the article first time around and missed that part. Funny tho if it’s true a boss and his guys out at a bar and there is a group of rats at the same bar at the same time.
IMO if it’s NY guys who were rats and they didn’t implicate any Philly guys when they flipped this day and age who cares. Why risk getting in trouble when them flipping didn’t hurt you.
This is the total opposite of street protocol. It doesn’t matter if the cooperation didn’t hurt you or your people. When you see “food” (rat) you eat food. Streets or prison. Technically if you don’t pop off on a rat or sex offender then it is your ass. Just saying. That’s how it goes.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by johnny_scootch » Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:35 am

chin_gigante wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:44 pm
Would also depend if the Lucchese family approved the inductions of Scarfo Jr's guys or if it was just Scarfo Sr who gave the okay. On the Stefanelli tapes, they talk about Scarfo Jr trying to recruit Philly guys to his side, like Joey Grande. They talk about how Scarfo Jr offered to make Grande a captain and clarify that he wasn't talking about a captain with the Lucchese family, but rather a captain under his father Scarfo Sr.
You know what Chin maybe I have it all mixed up but I thought Scarfo Jr made Persiano but it was considered invalid and so the Lucchese family wanting to keep Scarfo’s guys made him officially into their family. Then he gets transferred to Philly but instead of just introducing him around as a friend in their family they actually make him go through another ceremony needlessly.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by chin_gigante » Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:44 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:44 pm
Pmac2 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:25 pm Was Joey on the street when that guy recorded his induction? Did he ok the guy is what I wonder
Joey was released in April 2015 and Persiano recorded the induction October 2015. Joey definitely had to ok him. Funny thing tho there was no need for Persiano to even be at that induction ceremony as he had already been made by the Lucchese family. All Joey had to do was ok the transfer and have someone introduce him around to the Philly guys as a friend with them.
Instead they made him go through the ceremony all over again and he recorded it. Stupid is as stupid does.
Would also depend if the Lucchese family approved the inductions of Scarfo Jr's guys or if it was just Scarfo Sr who gave the okay. On the Stefanelli tapes, they talk about Scarfo Jr trying to recruit Philly guys to his side, like Joey Grande. They talk about how Scarfo Jr offered to make Grande a captain and clarify that he wasn't talking about a captain with the Lucchese family, but rather a captain under his father Scarfo Sr.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by Dr031718 » Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:27 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:34 pm
Cheech wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:07 pm No. He means in the article this week. Capeci says he ran into ny mobsters who turned and are murderers like him or something.
Ooooo I see it now. I skimmed the article first time around and missed that part. Funny tho if it’s true a boss and his guys out at a bar and there is a group of rats at the same bar at the same time.
IMO if it’s NY guys who were rats and they didn’t implicate any Philly guys when they flipped this day and age who cares. Why risk getting in trouble when them flipping didn’t hurt you.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by johnny_scootch » Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:34 pm

Cheech wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:07 pm No. He means in the article this week. Capeci says he ran into ny mobsters who turned and are murderers like him or something.
Ooooo I see it now. I skimmed the article first time around and missed that part. Funny tho if it’s true a boss and his guys out at a bar and there is a group of rats at the same bar at the same time.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by Cheech » Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:07 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:44 pm
Pmac2 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:25 pm Was Joey on the street when that guy recorded his induction? Did he ok the guy is what I wonder
Joey was released in April 2015 and Persiano recorded the induction October 2015. Joey definitely had to ok him. Funny thing tho there was no need for Persiano to even be at that induction ceremony as he had already been made by the Lucchese family. All Joey had to do was ok the transfer and have someone introduce him around to the Philly guys as a friend with them.
Instead they made him go through the ceremony all over again and he recorded it. Stupid is as stupid does.
PPPP wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:41 pm Who were the cooperators he saw in Boca?
If you’re referring to Merlino one of the guys who tried to entrap him while he was in Florida was Nicky Skins.
No. He means in the article this week. Capeci says he ran into ny mobsters who turned and are murderers like him or something.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by johnny_scootch » Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:44 pm

Pmac2 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:25 pm Was Joey on the street when that guy recorded his induction? Did he ok the guy is what I wonder
Joey was released in April 2015 and Persiano recorded the induction October 2015. Joey definitely had to ok him. Funny thing tho there was no need for Persiano to even be at that induction ceremony as he had already been made by the Lucchese family. All Joey had to do was ok the transfer and have someone introduce him around to the Philly guys as a friend with them.
Instead they made him go through the ceremony all over again and he recorded it. Stupid is as stupid does.
PPPP wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:41 pm Who were the cooperators he saw in Boca?
If you’re referring to Merlino one of the guys who tried to entrap him while he was in Florida was Nicky Skins.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by Cheech » Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:37 pm

Just speculating but could be the guys from the giannini crew or maybe joey calco? I lean giannini crew. You got the kid fabio, anthony gambina. The other kid tabita. They all turned.

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by PPPP » Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:41 pm

Who were the cooperators he saw in Boca?

Re: Gangland September 28th 2023

by Pmac2 » Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:25 pm

Was Joey on the street when that guy recorded his induction? Did he ok the guy is what I wonder

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