THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Ivan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:16 pm

VC2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:15 pm i think most can agree BH in general has had enough "excitement" across the board lately, outfit debates of that kind derail faster than usain bolt.

If you're new just FYI that was all totally anomalous. Was due to deliberate trolling by a certain member who is no longer with us.

He threw one final grenade before he was clipped with the Bonanno Social Club thread though.

VC2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 3:15 pm i think most can agree BH in general has had enough "excitement" across the board lately, outfit debates of that kind derail faster than usain bolt.

If you're new just FYI that was all totally anomalous. Was due to deliberate trolling by a certain member who is no longer with us.

The relationship between the mafia and criminality is not black and white or always continuous. While the "organized crime" tag is certainly deserved and any active mafia organization is inevitably going to be "open" to organized crime activity even if they're not heavily involved in it at a given time (i.e. some of the smaller US Families by the 1960s), that can change in the blink of an eye for an individual member and therefore the organization as whole.

There are examples like George Adragna who transferred from Pittsburgh to the barely-active San Jose Family and was seemingly "retired" but as MotorFab found he looks to have been helping facilitate a large-scale drug network with his in-laws and the Sicilian mafia in his later years; the opportunity apparently came up and he took it. Colombo member Tom DiBella was said by sources like Scarpa to have been completely uninvolved in "organized crime" activity for a decade or more and the FBI actually closed his file in the 1970s because of his ongoing "uninvolvement" in OC but a year later he was elected boss and overseeing the entire Family, therefore suddenly very "criminally active" by default.

With members, unless they are shelved or truly trying to remove themselves from the mafia network, they will maintain contact and relationships with other mafiosi until they die. It's what they do and even though there are exceptions, members will continue to maintain their place in the network for the entirety of their lives even if they no longer participate in organized crime or involve themselves in organizational politics. It's not so much a choice, it's what they are.

Associates are a little different because they didn't take an oath that cements them to the org for life but most of them too operate similarly. Their social existence, familial relationships, and legitimate businesses are often ingrained in the mafia network and it's simply the water they swim in. Some "associates" are around the org because of familial connections and not truly embedded in the mafia infrastructure so if their mafioso relative dies they may become very distanced from the organization but even years later a situation might come up where they need the mafia or they are preyed upon by the mafia, so they're never truly removed from it. (Think of the taped New England induction where JR Russo says your relatives will be part of this for 'seven generations'.)

It isn't black and white and even if we can't say positively whether an associate was involved in organized crime or mafia activity after 1991, like the example you gave, probability suggests that guy was still "with" the mafia and socially involved if nothing else and there is a high probability he was open to criminal opportunities if not participating in crime if he had a long history of OC activity.

this is such a breath of fresh air fellas. a question asked, direction given and answers given without any BS, i love it.

my question was unclear to a point, which is entirely my fault, ole brain doesnt always click these days, well most of last 2 plus years. i have used the search function a lot and it works very well. i suppose not finding much on some of these guys gives one a clue to their alleged activity. to al pilotto i was curious if indeed with local 5 he had ever tried to reassert influence after release. thought maybe something gone unread in an o'rourke report that i had missed but that settles that.

now to the others i had listed i couldnt find much in search on BH or really anywhere indicating being active in any function or rank. but they continue to pop up in conversation, on charts etc and i guess my point is it needs to be expressed that their involvement in criminality was not constant for the majority of these guys but for short periods of time related to a specific crew. so a guy like sam glorioso for example, more than likely his association with the outfit ended circa 1991 and did not continue, best we know up until his death in 2005.

however a guy like rocco lamantia may be entirely different. with his father being who he was, with the families relationships to other for better word, bridgeport families and connections he could at least be thought of as an associate possibly up until his 2017 death. so i understand that perhaps best practice is to as others have said go case by case and build best evidence and information.

last, i did not intend to start a made or not outfit discussion. i think most can agree BH in general has had enough "excitement" across the board lately, outfit debates of that kind derail faster than usain bolt. that part i wrote was obviously confusing to most and well to me when i re read. it was more to continued criminality of some of these guys.

thanks again, may have a few more names to ask about if ok.
have a good night all.

And even with NYC where there is exponentially more info, coverage, and ex-members/associates giving info, look at the debates that rage over what goes on in NYC and questions people still have. People who follow NYC closely are still surprised whenever new info comes out about what members/associates have been up to.

Snakes wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 12:25 pm Sometimes guys just fall out of favor or lose usefulness. Maybe some of those guys remained involved and maybe some didn't, but like Tony said, there is little out there on these guys as far as official information is concerned.

Exactly, and with guys who were associates, their affiliation is contingent on being “with” a member and is not a permnanent, lifelong status. Some associates get “chased” for some infraction, others just drift away or retire for various reasons. Maybe they are still “with” a member in a loose sense (not necessarily involved in criminal activities under that member’s flag, but are still afforded some protection if they go to that member with a problem), but if the guy they were “with” dies or does a long prison stint, they may not always be picked up by another member.

Goes without saying, but we just don’t have anything like the kind of info about most of these guys in Chicago to really say one way or the other what was happening with them. Look at all of the testimony and other member-derived sources that guys like Chin and JohnnyS and others here share and summarize for the NYC Families. This is rhe sort of evidence we would need for Chicago and — apart from a bit from Nick C — we just don’t have anything remotely comparable in either volume or validity.

Sometimes guys just fall out of favor or lose usefulness. Maybe some of those guys remained involved and maybe some didn't, but like Tony said, there is little out there on these guys as far as official information is concerned.

We’ve discussed all of these guys at some point or another, not sure if you’ve tried using the search function for this already.

Are you asking specifically if these guys were made? Members never stop being members, even if they are basically inactive with respect to the affairs of the organization and do not engage in any criminal activity. Associates can cease to be formally affiliated with the mafia, for various reasons.

So far as I am aware, the only one who was 100% confirmed as an LCN member was Al Pilotto, who succeeded Frank LaPorte as captain of the Heights crew in the 70s and held this position until his conviction and sentencing in 1982. Pilotto died in 1999 and there is no indication that he was involved in anything in his final years. LCN membership is, again, a permanent status, so he was still a member when he died. But we have no sources that tell us that he was involved in anything related to mafia affairs after his release (though if he in fact was, we also wouldn’t necessarily have any idea) and would not have been involved in any official capacity with LIUNA Local 5 following his prison stint.

Of the other guys, LaMantia, Catezone, and Cisternino I think could well have been made, but the inference here is less reliable. LaMantia is the strongest candidate, as he was identified as a member by the Feds, but his status was seemingly contradicted by Frank Calabrese Sr on one of the prison recordings done by Calabrese Jr (this was the story St recounted where he claimed that LaMantia had improperly introduced him as an LCN member to Sonny Franzese, the issue apparently having been that LaMantia was not himself made and thus was not supposed to have been doing this). There are thus some question marks here; for me, LaMantia is a firm “maybe”.

Guys like Cisternino and Catezone are rumored to have had some clout, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that they were made guys. A guy can be in charge of some operations/criminal activity and be acting on behalf of a made guy that he reports to, of course.

The other guys you listed, I don’t have any strong suspicion that they were made. It’s Chicago, so who really knows (most of us here don’t, often the Feds don’t. Guys on Reddit don’t). But these other names are not people that I have a strong inclination to even put in the “suspected” category myself.

If you’re just asking as to whether any of these guys were active in any criminal endeavors of whatever sort in the years preceding their deaths, it’s basically the same story. What’s publicly available about them is what’s publicly available. Online rumors about them may have — at the most generous — varying degrees of validity.

a few questions about some 'south side' guys. these names have long been mentioned forever as being part of chicago outfit, arrested with outfit associates or members. but in most cases there is a huge gap in when they were 'active' or arrested and then being mentioned again when perhaps they have died or maybe a picture comes up online with a title like current chicago soldier dies etc.

al pilotto - no idea of activity after release in 1992? in unions or anything. i believe a confirmed made member and former capo of chi heights crew.
nino cisternino - former chi heights crew member? involved in chop shops? did any of this activity continue after dissolution of heights crew or up until his jan.23 2020 death?
Michael Gurgone -former burglar, involved in hired truck scandal as driver for michael tadin trucking firm, city of chicago employee. seems like he stayed out of the life until his death feb.9 2020
sam glorioso -can find nothing linking him to criminal activity after 1990/1991 chi heights conviction for being money collector. died feb.1 2005
sam nuzzo sr +sons sam jr and arthur - have heard rumours they cont'd to have interest in sports gambling and still linked to 26th street, but only rumor, sam sr. died jan.14 2016
aldo piscitelli jr. - step son to shorty lamantia, after release from lamantia indictment is it possible he continued to operate with 26th up to his nov.28 2013 death?
richard catezone- any truth to him continuing to operate part of sports gambling for 26th street at anytime in 90s and into 2000s? same could be said for...donald de fazio?
rocco lamantia -son of joseph, arrest for burglary 2007, died aug.10 2017

so what do you guys think? i read up on paul dicaro as well in thread and he is a good example of this as well. believe he was a burglar in 70s early 80s did some time and then nothing. his name doesnt even show up in charts and lists as an associate in 90s and 2000s.

looking for any thoughts or direction at all. as i have been chart building for a while i think its important to once and for all rid some of these names from conversation. or at least rid them from conversation about being made.

oh one more michael talarico- nephew to angelo lapietra, once glossed as the acting capo of crew??? testified at FS trial 2007.

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 7:18 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:52 pm

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.


Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?

Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs

That’s been there for a few years now, saw it want to say 2022 or so when I was roaming around there.

Think it was a soccer club before that

Correct. It was a soccer club before that. I rarely ever see anybody coming in and out of the place. A week ago I saw the door open and looked in. Looks exactly like every other social club, which is basically espresso/coffee machine and tables with chairs for cards lol

funkster wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:52 pm

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.


Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?

Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs

That’s been there for a few years now, saw it want to say 2022 or so when I was roaming around there.

Think it was a soccer club before that

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.


Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?

Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs

That’s been there for a few years now, saw it want to say 2022 or so when I was roaming around there.

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.


Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?

Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs

funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.


Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?

Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

Agostino’s was a big loss to the neighborhood. Nobody can figure out why they rebuilt it then closed it down a short time later. The family has some type of sausage factory business way north and does very good for themselves and got tired of the restaurant business. The kid did time for selling ecstasy but is doing good now with being partial owner of a couple of restaurants in the city. One of them is Peanut Park trattoria on Taylor street. A little history, DiFronzo supposedly held his goodbye dinner at Agostino’s before he reported to the federal pen in 1993.

Also, Alex Dana has decided to reopen Rosebud on Taylor which everyone is very happy about.