General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

Forum rules

Post a reply

Confirmation code
Enter the code exactly as it appears. All letters are case insensitive.
BBCode is OFF
Smilies are OFF
Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 3:15 pm

Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:13 pm I know that and have agreed with it from very early in this discussion. All i was explaining is my opinion on the situation.
No worries -- I didn't mean to sound terse, I was just trying to clarify the context since it was about the formal boss rank not so much the way they interacted or what their dynamic was like. I think everyone agrees that as men they regarded each other as equals.

One interesting aspect of this though is we have Accardo on tape saying he got in serious trouble for the way he conducted himself as boss and how once you make a mistake people start looking for you to make other mistakes. He was likely referring to the consiglio calling him on the carpet for his conduct as boss and encouraging him to step down, Ricca probably being a part of that if not the main one calling him out (which would be his right as a consigliere). As mentioned earlier, the San Jose consiglio was in a similar situation with Cerrito at one point.

Another angle though is DeRose said something about Ricca not being on the council for a time. It's been discussed on here before but I'd have to look at what he specifically said and the period he was referring to.
Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:27 pm So much of what can be gained from CI's or even folks who testify is really hard to decipher, because the family was very good at concealing it's actual hierarchy, even from the lower ranks of the organization. The word "boss" can be so messy, as someone could use it to to refer to the actual position of boss, or perhaps the one with the most defacto power (such as a Ricca or Acccardo). For example, Ken Eto in the mid 80's, fingered Accardo as "boss", Aiuppa as the "underboss", and Cerone as the "#3", whatever that means. I"m not saying he was right, just that these things can be very hard to decipher. Also, a made guy could be referred to as a boss, or a captain, etc.

I'm on board with what B. is explaining, in that with Accardo we have plenty of first had evidence of him actually being boss, and with Ricca it is all primarily second hand. I'm not arguing one way or the other, just stating that which is verifiable.
Yep. Great post, especially about use of the word "boss".

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Coloboy » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:27 pm

So much of what can be gained from CI's or even folks who testify is really hard to decipher, because the family was very good at concealing it's actual hierarchy, even from the lower ranks of the organization. The word "boss" can be so messy, as someone could use it to to refer to the actual position of boss, or perhaps the one with the most defacto power (such as a Ricca or Acccardo). For example, Ken Eto in the mid 80's, fingered Accardo as "boss", Aiuppa as the "underboss", and Cerone as the "#3", whatever that means. I"m not saying he was right, just that these things can be very hard to decipher. Also, a made guy could be referred to as a boss, or a captain, etc.

I'm on board with what B. is explaining, in that with Accardo we have plenty of first had evidence of him actually being boss, and with Ricca it is all primarily second hand. I'm not arguing one way or the other, just stating that which is verifiable.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:13 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:11 pm
Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:05 pm
B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:01 pm Not sure I understand. I think you're getting fixated on the term "reporting" which is a very general term. I'm not sure offhand if that was the exact term used in the FBI report either but the general idea being communicated is that Accardo outranked Ricca in the formal hierarchy.
You edited after i replied, fair enough if it's different wording that could change my understanding and opinion.
Either way, what the source was communicating is that "despite popular belief" Ricca was never "sanctioned" as official boss while Accardo was. And we do have definite confirmation Accardo was the official boss while info about Ricca's formal position is less definitive.
I know that and have agreed with it from very early in this discussion. All i was explaining is my opinion on the situation.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:11 pm

Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:05 pm
B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:01 pm Not sure I understand. I think you're getting fixated on the term "reporting" which is a very general term. I'm not sure offhand if that was the exact term used in the FBI report either but the general idea being communicated is that Accardo outranked Ricca in the formal hierarchy.
You edited after i replied, fair enough if it's different wording that could change my understanding and opinion.
Either way, what the source was communicating is that "despite popular belief" Ricca was never "sanctioned" as official boss while Accardo was. And we do have definite confirmation Accardo was the official boss while info about Ricca's formal position is less definitive.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by VC2 » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:08 pm

https://ibb.co/gLZZkvZ5

above is a link to a very basic, black and white text only outfit chart i have been well, working on for a bit. it covers the regime of john monteleone 1997-2001. i have not even begun to separate made men from associates, as that is another ball of wax. i will say as well i have similar charts covering time period starting arbitrarily jan.1 1992 and progressing into the 2020s with what evidence i have.
again, comments, critiques, anything all welcome.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:05 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:01 pm Not sure I understand. I think you're getting fixated on the term "reporting" which is a very general term. I'm not sure offhand if that was the exact term used in the FBI report either but the general idea being communicated is that Accardo outranked Ricca in the formal hierarchy.
You edited after i replied, fair enough if it's different wording that could change my understanding and opinion.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:02 pm

Actually, if Ricca did always report to Accardo couldn't that suggest Accardo was the one on the Consiglio going by your second paragraph?

Your source at least as you reported it said Ricca always reported to Accardo, if there's examples of the opposite then that's not true. I'm more focusing on the word "always" than "reporting".

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:01 pm

Not sure I understand. I think you're getting fixated on the term "reporting" which is a very general term. I'm not sure offhand if that was the exact term used in the FBI report either but the general idea being communicated is that Accardo outranked Ricca in the formal hierarchy.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:59 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:54 pm
Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:43 pm The part i had issue with is him always reporting to Accardo. Don't we have examples of the opposite, Accardo reporting to Ricca about his various issues in the 50s when he was Boss? I don't think what certain sources said about RIcca and Accardo make sense alongside the idea that Ricca was reporting to Accardo. Again just my opinion i'm willing to change it if there's further corroboration. Funnily enough i already did change my view on this issue as i initially believed the Roemer, Accardo was the forever Boss and Ricca was just a figurehead narrative.
There are a lot of issues with the way people interpret a term like "reporting" when it comes to the mafia. It doesn't mean Accardo was barking orders at Ricca or that Ricca behaved like a subordinate, only that Accardo may have formally outranked him in the hierarchy. Beyond that it doesn't tell us anything about their relationship or Ricca's actual role.

I'm not sure which examples we have of Accardo "reporting to" Ricca when he was boss in the 1950s, but that would be consistent with the role of consigliere / chairman of the consiglio. Much as Giancana sought Accardo's counsel when he was boss, I'm sure Accardo met with Ricca under similar circumstances. The same arrangement was true of other Families with a consiglio or official consigliere. Civella in KC for example was official boss but informant Crapisi said senior members Filardo and Cusumano were actually the final authority and Civella ran things by them, there being reason to believe KC had a consiglio.
If Accardo reported to Ricca then Ricca didn't always report to Accardo which is an issue with that source.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:54 pm

Camo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:43 pm The part i had issue with is him always reporting to Accardo. Don't we have examples of the opposite, Accardo reporting to Ricca about his various issues in the 50s when he was Boss? I don't think what certain sources said about RIcca and Accardo make sense alongside the idea that Ricca was reporting to Accardo. Again just my opinion i'm willing to change it if there's further corroboration. Funnily enough i already did change my view on this issue as i initially believed the Roemer, Accardo was the forever Boss and Ricca was just a figurehead narrative.
There are a lot of issues with the way people interpret a term like "reporting" when it comes to the mafia. It doesn't mean Accardo was barking orders at Ricca or that Ricca behaved like a subordinate, only that Accardo may have formally outranked him in the hierarchy. Beyond that it doesn't tell us anything about their relationship or Ricca's actual role.

I'm not sure which examples we have of Accardo "reporting to" Ricca when he was boss in the 1950s, but that would be consistent with the role of consigliere / chairman of the consiglio. Much as Giancana sought Accardo's counsel when he was boss, I'm sure Accardo met with Ricca under similar circumstances. The same arrangement was true of other Families with a consiglio or official consigliere. Civella in KC for example was official boss but informant Crapisi said senior members Filardo and Cusumano were actually the final authority and Civella ran things by them, there being reason to believe KC had a consiglio. As mentioned, Balistrieri had to discuss issues with the Milwaukee consiglio and these meetings sometimes descended into volatile arguments so these roles/relationships aren't as simple as the boss having absolute authority.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:43 pm

The part i had issue with is him always reporting to Accardo. Don't we have examples of the opposite, Accardo reporting to Ricca about his various issues in the 50s when he was Boss? I don't think what certain sources said about RIcca and Accardo make sense alongside the idea that Ricca was reporting to Accardo. Again just my opinion i'm willing to change it if there's further corroboration. Funnily enough i already did change my view on this issue as i initially believed the Roemer, Accardo was the forever Boss and Ricca was just a figurehead narrative.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:32 pm

We have reason to believe he was already a high-ranking member and one of the most powerful figures in the Chicago Family before Capone became boss as Magaddino said at the 1931 post-war meeting when Salvatore LoVerde was boss that LoVerde represented the "greaseball" faction while Ricca attended to represent the "Americanized" (i.e. non-Sicilian, as Ricca was hardly "Americanized" and both Magaddino and Joe Bonanno use "Americanized" to refer to non-Sicilian mafiosi) faction. We also know he was negotiating with other national bosses during that time on Capone's behalf, including privately meeting with Gentile and Magaddino to gain their support. So he was already a peer of national leaders by mid-1931 even though we know positively he was not the boss at that time.

My own belief is when Capone transferred and became boss that Ricca was either underboss or perhaps consigliere / chairman as he would be later. Capone goes to prison and Ricca was possibly the acting boss although we have to consider Nitti too. Then around 1935 there is the vague issue between Ricca and the Commission, somehow involving Al Polizzi in Cleveland, which is serious enough that Polizzi could lose standing with the Commission for siding with Ricca. Capone might have been official boss still through most of the 1930s as even though DeRose was likely wrong when he said Capone was boss until his death, I believe it's possible if not likely Capone held the title prior to his health deteriorating. If Ricca did have a serious issue with the Commission that may play into what the "Amafa" source said about Ricca never being "sanctioned" as boss.

The "Amafa" source acknowledged the perception that Ricca was official boss ("contrary to popular belief") and he himself said Ricca "acted with all authority" even though he was never sanctioned as official boss. So he acknowledged that Ricca had the authority you'd expect of a boss yet felt the need to note that he never officially held the title. There is zero disagreement about Ricca's power and influence, the only question being the formal title he held or didn't hold.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:11 pm Who are the majority of sources though?

- Piscopo did believe Ricca was the boss which to me is the most significant source given his relationship to Roselli. He didn't elaborate though and we can't be sure if he was saying Ricca was the official boss or acting, only that Ricca was the "boss" and highest authority in the Family circa early 1940s. Did Roselli tell him "Ricca was official boss" or something more general like "Ricca is the one in charge / calling the shots"? These details matter when examining the formalities.

- Teddy DeRose said Al Capone was boss until he died, then Nitti became boss followed by Campagna for a short time, then Ricca and finally Accardo. His timeline is a mess though and I don't think anyone believes Capone was still official boss until 1947.

- Bill Bonanno's chart listing Ricca as a member of the Commission in 1931 just means Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission after Capone went to prison. I doubt Capone lost his title immediately after going to prison (much as Luciano didn't lose his a few years later) so in addition to other non-bosses serving as Commission representative in the boss's absence, it's unlikely to me that Capone was officially replaced that early. Interestingly, Piscopo in LA said he knew the consigliere could represent a Family on the Commission but didn't give examples.

Most of the other evidence is more anecdotal. And just to be clear, these examples are absolutely worth considering and are part of the conversation. The point is we lack a definite confirmation and there are alternate theories that also make sense as well as info that challenges the idea that Ricca was official boss.
I'm more talking about the sources referring to his significance after his release from prison, saying stuff like he has the final say in the room. It's tough for me to believe he ever reported to Accardo considering that which is why i'm skeptical of that source, i think they were either partners or Ricca was above him.

You're right that there's far less saying he was actually Boss though and i'm assuming that he was and that's why he had the significance later.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:11 pm

Who are the majority of sources though?

- Piscopo did believe Ricca was the boss which to me is the most significant source given his relationship to Roselli. He didn't elaborate though and we can't be sure if he was saying Ricca was the official boss or acting, only that Ricca was the "boss" and highest authority in the Family circa early 1940s. Did Roselli tell him "Ricca was official boss" or something more general like "Ricca is the one in charge / calling the shots"? These details matter when examining the formalities.

- Teddy DeRose said Al Capone was boss until he died, then Nitti became boss followed by Campagna for a short time, then Ricca and finally Accardo. His timeline is a mess though and I don't think anyone believes Capone was still official boss until 1947. Even if Capone lost his title earlier, like when his mental conditioned worsened, to consider his claim that Ricca was official boss we also have to consider the claim that there was an entire succession of bosses crammed into a relatively short time window.

- Bill Bonanno's chart listing Ricca as a member of the Commission in 1931 just means Ricca represented Chicago on the Commission after Capone went to prison. I doubt Capone lost his title immediately after going to prison (much as Luciano didn't lose his a few years later) so in addition to other non-bosses serving as Commission representative in the boss's absence, it's unlikely to me that Capone was officially replaced that early. Interestingly, Piscopo in LA said he knew the consigliere could represent a Family on the Commission but didn't give examples.

Most of the other evidence is more anecdotal. And just to be clear, these examples are absolutely worth considering and are part of the conversation. The point is we lack a definite confirmation and there are alternate theories that also make sense as well as info that challenges the idea that Ricca was official boss.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Camo » Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:54 pm

Thanks. I agree it should be part of the conversation but i still believe Ricca was likely Boss in the 30s/40s and was likely the most powerful figure for decades afterwards because that's what the majority of sources point towards. Just my opinion.

Top