THE BLACK HAND FORUM

B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:48 pm

Nasabeak wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:51 pm Joe Bonanno was biased but he said Gambino derived his power from Lucchese and stepped back when Lucchese died. Bonanno placed Lucchese's influence very high and definitely undervalued Gambino ("squirrel of a man") but there could be an element of truth to it.

People also cite him as the lead conspirator against Anastasia when we know it was Riccobono and Biondo's group that took the initiative and carried it out. Gambino had a rocky relationship with Anastasia -- I wouldn't be surprised if he was clued in before it happened and he was certainly aligned with Riccobono-Biondo afterward but it wasn't Gambino's plot.

Would you say that there’s a possibility that perhaps he was a bit of a figurehead in a sense - mainly concerned with Gambino relations with other families, while he actually had Paul, Neil, Paolo running the Family. Like, if you would, if Gambino was the Chairnan of the Board, these guys were like an unofficial handling things day to day for him? With then the Capos reporting to him?

Sorta like he was just the final word, the emissary to other families, basically —- do what Ya’s want, just kick the cash up and don’t make or kill anybody I don’t OK

As early as 73 Capos wanted him to step down because they felt he wasn’t doing anything but was still receiving tribute and that he wasn’t capable of handling things and it was “hurting their bread and butter.”

So it makes me wonder if he wasn’t a figurehead bolstered by Tommy Brown, Paul C, Neil, and Paolo

Gambino was a powerful boss / avugad with massive influence both in NYC and nationally but I do think a mythology has been created around him as a "boss of bosses" and Machiavellian mastermind, like Ivan said. Some people want to make Gambino's reign out to be some kind of "self help" routine where people can learn leadership life skills from him just because he talked about lions and foxes. The reality is more complex and interesting.

He definitely had significant influence over Sam DeCavalcante, Angelo Bruno, and Joe Colombo while managing a massive Family of his own so nothing can be taken away from him, it's just a matter of understanding how Cosa Nostra actually works and what a rappresentante is.

Nasabeak wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:05 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:48 pm

Nasabeak wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:51 pm Joe Bonanno was biased but he said Gambino derived his power from Lucchese and stepped back when Lucchese died. Bonanno placed Lucchese's influence very high and definitely undervalued Gambino ("squirrel of a man") but there could be an element of truth to it.

People also cite him as the lead conspirator against Anastasia when we know it was Riccobono and Biondo's group that took the initiative and carried it out. Gambino had a rocky relationship with Anastasia -- I wouldn't be surprised if he was clued in before it happened and he was certainly aligned with Riccobono-Biondo afterward but it wasn't Gambino's plot.

Would you say that there’s a possibility that perhaps he was a bit of a figurehead in a sense - mainly concerned with Gambino relations with other families, while he actually had Paul, Neil, Paolo running the Family. Like, if you would, if Gambino was the Chairnan of the Board, these guys were like an unofficial handling things day to day for him? With then the Capos reporting to him?

Sorta like he was just the final word, the emissary to other families, basically —- do what Ya’s want, just kick the cash up and don’t make or kill anybody I don’t OK

As early as 73 Capos wanted him to step down because they felt he wasn’t doing anything but was still receiving tribute and that he wasn’t capable of handling things and it was “hurting their bread and butter.”

So it makes me wonder if he wasn’t a figurehead bolstered by Tommy Brown, Paul C, Neil, and Paolo

Gambino was a powerful boss / avugad with massive influence both in NYC and nationally but I do think a mythology has been created around him as a "boss of bosses" and Machiavellian mastermind, like Ivan said. Some people want to make Gambino's reign out to be some kind of "self help" routine where people can learn leadership life skills from him just because he talked about lions and foxes. The reality is more complex and interesting.

He definitely had significant influence over Sam DeCavalcante, Angelo Bruno, and Joe Colombo while managing a massive Family of his own so nothing can be taken away from him, it's just a matter of understanding how Cosa Nostra actually works and what a rappresentante is.

What it seems like he was a macro manager. Leave the nitty gritty to his unofficial panel of top guys. Like, Paul, Paolo, Joe N. Gallo, Neil, these guys were the guys doing the day to day shit.

Those top guys in turn managed the Capos for Carlo. Kept the peace. Any beefs they may have handled as long as the outcome was satisfactory to Carlo.

As long as the financial kick ups add up, as long as no one’s getting made or promoted or killed that he didn’t authorize and it ain’t the OK Corral, then these guys do what they want.

Meanwhile Carlo is focusing his energies on politics, expanding Gambino family power nationwide, etc, cementing alliances and so on with other families, working with Paul to expand the family’s legitimate horizons as well.

But I feel like to your average Soldier, Carlo was “The Boss” but Paul Castellano or Neil Dellacroce or Joe N. Gallo would be who a guy dealt with, answered to.

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:39 am

Villain wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:34 am

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:39 am what are they talking about directly above?

They are talking about the government putting lots of pressure in Chicago and so Giancana asked Tommy Eboli regarding the Bonanno problem in NY at the time, and Eboli said that the thing will be straighten out.

So Eboli allegedly showed the same loyalty towards Ricca, as he also showed it towards his imprisoned boss Vito Genovese, and Eboli also stated to Ricca that he wanted to give him his opinion directly, instead of going back and forth between him, Giancana, Lucchese etc.

Now, the most interesting thing is Ricca's comment regarding Bonanno allegedly having "the right to ask for these three guys". I dont know who were the three guys that Ricca talked about, although I think he meant the three alleged bosses who were allegedly on Bonannos hit list.

We can also see that Ricca also had some suspicion in the situation regarding Bonanno not showing up at the commission meeting so he can explain himself.

Does this mean that Ricca supported Bonanno's powerplay? We still dont know, since Giancana was allegedly against it and hated Bonanno. Although (i dont remember clearly) i think it was Bill Bonanno who allegedly said that it was allegedly Ricca who helped him in removing the contract on his head, or something to that extent...

THANK YOU SO MUCH, VILLAIN. I appreciate you taking the time to indulge me.

Villain wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:34 am

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:39 am what are they talking about directly above?

They are talking about the government putting lots of pressure in Chicago and so Giancana asked Tommy Eboli regarding the Bonanno problem in NY at the time, and Eboli said that the thing will be straighten out.

So Eboli allegedly showed the same loyalty towards Ricca, as he also showed it towards his imprisoned boss Vito Genovese, and Eboli also stated to Ricca that he wanted to give him his opinion directly, instead of going back and forth between him, Giancana, Lucchese etc.

Now, the most interesting thing is Ricca's comment regarding Bonanno allegedly having "the right to ask for these three guys". I dont know who were the three guys that Ricca talked about, although I think he meant the three alleged bosses who were allegedly on Bonannos hit list.

We can also see that Ricca also had some suspicion in the situation regarding Bonanno not showing up at the commission meeting so he can explain himself.

Does this mean that Ricca supported Bonanno's powerplay? We still dont know, since Giancana was allegedly against it and hated Bonanno. Although (i dont remember clearly) i think it was Bill Bonanno who allegedly said that it was allegedly Ricca who helped him in removing the contract on his head, or something to that extent...

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:16 pm The third Boss was Sam The Plumber..... Joe Zerilli left town and the "invalid" message was delivered by the other two. So when he says "he has every right to ask....." it was known to be apart of the protocol. Bonanno's removal (and subsequently, the deaths of Lucchese, Genovese and Maggadino) spelled the end of alot of the formalities of the Commission protocol. Also federal scrutiny.

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:03 am

Villain wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:34 am

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:39 am what are they talking about directly above?

They are talking about the government putting lots of pressure in Chicago and so Giancana asked Tommy Eboli regarding the Bonanno problem in NY at the time, and Eboli said that the thing will be straighten out.

So Eboli allegedly showed the same loyalty towards Ricca, as he also showed it towards his imprisoned boss Vito Genovese, and Eboli also stated to Ricca that he wanted to give him his opinion directly, instead of going back and forth between him, Giancana, Lucchese etc.

Now, the most interesting thing is Ricca's comment regarding Bonanno allegedly having "the right to ask for these three guys". I dont know who were the three guys that Ricca talked about, although I think he meant the three alleged bosses who were allegedly on Bonannos hit list.

We can also see that Ricca also had some suspicion in the situation regarding Bonanno not showing up at the commission meeting so he can explain himself.

Does this mean that Ricca supported Bonanno's powerplay? We still dont know, since Giancana was allegedly against it and hated Bonanno. Although (i dont remember clearly) i think it was Bill Bonanno who allegedly said that it was allegedly Ricca who helped him in removing the contract on his head, or something to that extent...

The three guys are the bosses who were assigned to give Bonanno the message to come in for a Commission meeting. Angelo Bruno and Joe Zerilli were two but I forget who was third. I'll have to check.

Villain wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:34 am

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:39 am what are they talking about directly above?

They are talking about the government putting lots of pressure in Chicago and so Giancana asked Tommy Eboli regarding the Bonanno problem in NY at the time, and Eboli said that the thing will be straighten out.

So Eboli allegedly showed the same loyalty towards Ricca, as he also showed it towards his imprisoned boss Vito Genovese, and Eboli also stated to Ricca that he wanted to give him his opinion directly, instead of going back and forth between him, Giancana, Lucchese etc.

Now, the most interesting thing is Ricca's comment regarding Bonanno allegedly having "the right to ask for these three guys". I dont know who were the three guys that Ricca talked about, although I think he meant the three alleged bosses who were allegedly on Bonannos hit list.

We can also see that Ricca also had some suspicion in the situation regarding Bonanno not showing up at the commission meeting so he can explain himself.

Does this mean that Ricca supported Bonanno's powerplay? We still dont know, since Giancana was allegedly against it and hated Bonanno. Although (i dont remember clearly) i think it was Bill Bonanno who allegedly said that it was allegedly Ricca who helped him in removing the contract on his head, or something to that extent...

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:39 am what are they talking about directly above?

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 6:47 am Keep in mind that Carlo Gambino was made provisional boss only, after the death of Anastasia and that he was appointed by the Commission. Bonanno and Lucchese were extremely satisfied with this choise, Bonanno because he thought he could control him and Lucchese because he was in law (or very soon to be). With this in mind, one can not help to wonder about Gambino´s strenght when he was percieved as someone who could be controlled. Gambino did not have the full control of his Family which also can be described as weakness. With that said, Gambino was as smart as any of the other bosses and survived by cunningness. Although we don´t have details, Gambino himself certainly had the skill set to manipulate others.

OcSleeper wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:05 pm Wasn't Arizona the exact reason Accardo had issues with Bonanno? Bonanno was trying to collect tribute from others and claiming it as his own when it was an open territory. I think it was came up in the same file that Accardo is explaining to Giancana who their allies are on the Commission.

Maybe before this came about they had an amicable relationship.