THE BLACK HAND FORUM

UTC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:03 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:32 pm

UTC wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:39 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:42 am

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.

and is a nicer term than RATS

Or "free riders" according to the unions. The other side of the coin is that a number of these people would rather cut their own deal with the employer, and they can't because they are considered in the bargaining unit, and in reality the unions look the other way if they get stiffed. Free riders are rare, except in the Deep South, due to peer pressure. Most unionized places are "union shop", where everyone has to join. That's not allowed in right-to-work states, but there are very few unions in those states. In first contracts, employers commonly agree to mandatory membership after hire, because unions will drop any employee wage or benefit demand to have the regular source of dues AND not have to collect them themselves. The "closed shop", where everyone has to be in the union to be hired to begin with, has been illegal since 1947.

when someone states open shop or closed shop its slang term for the job is non union or union..simple as that. no need to go into specifics and legalities in this case. rinaldi is considered an open shop contractor, he uses non union companies. end of story. i sppreciate your knowledge but it doesnt mean anything in this case as open shop was stated in reference to the use of non union on site. i am a union official within the building trades i understand the technicalities. its not pertinent

I've been a labor lawyer for 47 years, including in the construction industry, and the terms are pertinent all the time when I am dealing with issues with union lawyers. What you guys say I don't know, and it's not pertinent if there is a real dispute. Slang I can't speak to.

queensnyer wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:32 pm

UTC wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:39 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:42 am

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.

and is a nicer term than RATS

Or "free riders" according to the unions. The other side of the coin is that a number of these people would rather cut their own deal with the employer, and they can't because they are considered in the bargaining unit, and in reality the unions look the other way if they get stiffed. Free riders are rare, except in the Deep South, due to peer pressure. Most unionized places are "union shop", where everyone has to join. That's not allowed in right-to-work states, but there are very few unions in those states. In first contracts, employers commonly agree to mandatory membership after hire, because unions will drop any employee wage or benefit demand to have the regular source of dues AND not have to collect them themselves. The "closed shop", where everyone has to be in the union to be hired to begin with, has been illegal since 1947.

when someone states open shop or closed shop its slang term for the job is non union or union..simple as that. no need to go into specifics and legalities in this case. rinaldi is considered an open shop contractor, he uses non union companies. end of story. i sppreciate your knowledge but it doesnt mean anything in this case as open shop was stated in reference to the use of non union on site. i am a union official within the building trades i understand the technicalities. its not pertinent

UTC wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:39 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:42 am

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.

and is a nicer term than RATS

Or "free riders" according to the unions. The other side of the coin is that a number of these people would rather cut their own deal with the employer, and they can't because they are considered in the bargaining unit, and in reality the unions look the other way if they get stiffed. Free riders are rare, except in the Deep South, due to peer pressure. Most unionized places are "union shop", where everyone has to join. That's not allowed in right-to-work states, but there are very few unions in those states. In first contracts, employers commonly agree to mandatory membership after hire, because unions will drop any employee wage or benefit demand to have the regular source of dues AND not have to collect them themselves. The "closed shop", where everyone has to be in the union to be hired to begin with, has been illegal since 1947.

UTC wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:39 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:42 am

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.

and is a nicer term than RATS

Or "free riders" according to the unions. The other side of the coin is that a number of these people would rather cut their own deal with the employer, and they can't because they are considered in the bargaining unit, and in reality the unions look the other way if they get stiffed. Free riders are rare, except in the Deep South, due to peer pressure. Most unionized places are "union shop", where everyone has to join. That's not allowed in right-to-work states, but there are very few unions in those states. In first contracts, employers commonly agree to mandatory membership after hire, because unions will drop any employee wage or benefit demand to have the regular source of dues AND not have to collect them themselves. The "closed shop", where everyone has to already be a union member to be hired to begin with, has been illegal since 1947.

queensnyer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:42 am

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.

and is a nicer term than RATS

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:30 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:06 am

B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:39 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:11 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:12 pm not really mob related. im sure some of the contractors on the pay to play list are on record with someone but mainly just greedy construction managers. nothing new. mob or no mob this is how construction in nyc operates. your bid means nothing. the jobs are dolled out before the bids. i worked for a very largevmechanical doing some massive union work and we picked and chose the jobs we wanted and discussed price with managers years ago. no mob involvement

Except this case is mob related and does have mob involvement. As I said in the other thread, it involves business racketeering we're increasingly seeing, rather than labor racketeering, but to say this is "not really mob related" is false on its face. Nobody said the mob has a monopoly on construction scams in New York.

The mob has a monopoly on construction scams in New York.

I think these guys are saying they actually don't though, thst this is really stuff everyone in construction does. They are probably the main criminal group involved though.

I think they are saying the typical contractor isn't asking mob permission to overinflate charges, or cheat on wages, that type of stuff...

I think B was joking.

But LCN is far and away the main criminal group involved. Nobody else is even close.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:06 am

B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:39 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:11 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:12 pm not really mob related. im sure some of the contractors on the pay to play list are on record with someone but mainly just greedy construction managers. nothing new. mob or no mob this is how construction in nyc operates. your bid means nothing. the jobs are dolled out before the bids. i worked for a very largevmechanical doing some massive union work and we picked and chose the jobs we wanted and discussed price with managers years ago. no mob involvement

Except this case is mob related and does have mob involvement. As I said in the other thread, it involves business racketeering we're increasingly seeing, rather than labor racketeering, but to say this is "not really mob related" is false on its face. Nobody said the mob has a monopoly on construction scams in New York.

The mob has a monopoly on construction scams in New York.

I think these guys are saying they actually don't though, thst this is really stuff everyone in construction does. They are probably the main criminal group involved though.

I think they are saying the typical contractor isn't asking mob permission to overinflate charges, or cheat on wages, that type of stuff...

B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:39 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:11 pm

queensnyer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:12 pm not really mob related. im sure some of the contractors on the pay to play list are on record with someone but mainly just greedy construction managers. nothing new. mob or no mob this is how construction in nyc operates. your bid means nothing. the jobs are dolled out before the bids. i worked for a very largevmechanical doing some massive union work and we picked and chose the jobs we wanted and discussed price with managers years ago. no mob involvement

Except this case is mob related and does have mob involvement. As I said in the other thread, it involves business racketeering we're increasingly seeing, rather than labor racketeering, but to say this is "not really mob related" is false on its face. Nobody said the mob has a monopoly on construction scams in New York.

The mob has a monopoly on construction scams in New York.

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.

UTC wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:40 pm Just to be precise, and not to be a know-it-all jerk, "open shop" means there is a union representing all employees in a particular unit, but membership is voluntary.