THE BLACK HAND FORUM

RushStreet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 1:27 pm Sarno higher in command than Caruso? Thanks for the laugh.

RushStreet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 1:27 pm Sarno higher in command than Caruso? Thanks for the laugh.

Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 1:33 pm

RushStreet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 1:27 pm Sarno higher in command than Caruso? Thanks for the laugh.

Sarno was the boss of the Chicago Outfit at that time, what's the confusion? FBI indicated that Caruso was indeed kicking up to him...because ya know...he was the boss. Same source also indicated that Sarno was in turn either kicking up to Difronzo or sharing profits with him in some fashion.

The obsession with clothing is really odd. I saw that you had an identical thread going on the gangsterbb site about clothes.

RushStreet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 1:27 pm Sarno higher in command than Caruso? Thanks for the laugh.

RushStreet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 1:27 pm Sarno higher in command than Caruso? Thanks for the laugh.

Coloboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 12:26 pm FWIW...members of the EP Crew and the Cicero Crew are more frequently seen socializing together in public at places like Capri, so it's even possible that instead of a 26th/cicero crew and an EP/Grand crew....we have something totally different.

RushStreet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 12:32 pm Sorry to break it to everyone but the current guys in the Cicero crew are not very accepted by guys in the other crews, and never have been. Everyone thought Sarno was a fat tub of lard that looked like a slob. The only crew that really accepted him was his own.

Its just how it is.

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:20 amAgain, I'm not arguing vociferously about the veracity of the above names, I'm just trying to pinpoint what the FBI thought at a particular time and place.

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 11:13 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 10:41 am

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:51 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:55 pmI'd say a realistic estimate is 30 to 35, leaning towards the lower end. They barely had 50 to 60 guys in the 80s, so assuming they have the low end of that in 2025 is a bit generous. I do think it's realistic that Sarno had some sort of recruiting drive considering the age and incarceration of many members at that point in time, but it's hard for me to accept two dozen guys.

If the Outfit was at approximately 30 members in 2007, and as many as 20 members have died since then, they actually would have had to make around two dozen guys to be at 30-35 now.

My only push back against this is that even when they had vastly more resources to dedicate to investigating the Outfit, they still under-counted the estimated members by about 10-15 guys. Most of the guys at Nick's making ceremony weren't even listed on the 1985 list, which was nearly two years after he was made. I suppose you could counter and say Nick would be able to give them a more accurate count, but if the 2007 estimate was under-counted by even half a dozen, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they made 10-12 in the intervening 18 years, which makes the figure of 30 at least realistic, especially considering below.

I don't really see where you get 20 guys having died since 2007. I don't even count 10:

Andriacchi
Frank Sr.
John and Pete DiFronzo
Joe Grieco
Lombardo
Lou Marino
Al Tornabene

Any other name has serious doubts about their actual status as a member (D'Amico, Cozzo). I can't go back into the chart post and amend the entries because I can no longer edit the initial post.

Additionally, that there may be some kind of split in Outfit organization may be partly true, but this may also result in confusion about the crew structure. Is it two crews or four crews operating within a split structure? I don't there is reliable evidence pointing either way, so I'm open to both. Vena's title has also been inconsistently applied. During his trial, Steve Mandell was cross-examined and asked by the government “And you knew Albert Vena but didn't know Albert Vena as the boss of the Grand Avenue crew?" so there isn't unanimity there. This is also kind of quibbling, but court documents suggest that Melrose Park and Cicero were combined under Zizzo while Marcello was in prison (and also collectively referred to as "Cicero," which may have just been a moniker for the whole west side of the Outfit). Melrose Park ("Carlisi" crew) is probably the one crew that can be declared defunct with any type of confidence, unless you count whatever constitutes the current West Side/Cicero crew as an evolved version of it. Finally, I can't vouch for his status now, but Toots was named as the "reputed leader" of the Chinatown crew by the Tribune as late as 2010.

Not to go back to ancient history but, just to review, we had DeCarlo and Scarpa in New York talking about there being approximately 50 members in Chicago in the 1960s. FBI reports in the 1980s ranged from 41 to 51 members. The FBI in 1993 had 47 listed members but included Rockford. In 1999, the FBI had 47 members. Those are surprisingly consistent figures over a few decades. It was in the 2000s when we started to see FBI figures ranging from 25-30 members.

Some time ago I tried to make an exhaustive list of people who had been identified as members, by one source or another, since 1999. I actually did find about a half a dozen possible names beyond the 28 figure cited in 2007. Feel free to critique it. But whether we remove guys names because they were never made to begin with, or they were made but have since died, the end result is the same as far as estimated current membership. I don't really see how one gets to 30-35 members at this point, let alone 50-75.

1. Dominic Cortina - 1999
2. Angelo LaPietra - 1999
3. Alfred Pilotto - 1999
4. Philip Ponto - 1999
5. Fred Roti - 1999
6. Donald Angelini - 2000
7. James DiForti - 2000
8. Anthony Centracchio - 2001
9. Anthony Chiaramonti - 2001
10. John Monteleone - 2001
11. Romeo Nappi - 2001
12. William Messino - 2002
13. Carmen Bastone - 2002
14. Joseph LaMantia (Aldo Piscatelli) - 2002
15. Marshall Caifano - 2003
16. Nicholas Calabrese - 2003 flipped
17. Nicholas Ciotti - 2003
18. Anthony Cirignani - 2003
19. Frank Buccieri - 2004
20. Rocco Infelise - 2005
21. Dominick Palermo - 2005
22. Albert Tocco - 2005
23. Anthony Zizzo - 2006
24. Michael Talarico - testified
25. J. Vincent Cozzo - 2007
26. Louis DeRiggi - 2007
27. Alfonso Tornabene - 2009
28. Bernard Morgano - 2010
29. Charles DiCaro - 2011
30. Frank Calabrese Sr. - 2012
31. James Cerone - 2012
32. Joseph Grieco - 2013
33. Vito Spillone - 2015
34. Angelo Volpe - 2016
35. Louis Marino - 2017
36. John DiFronzo - 2018
37. Joseph Lombardo, Sr. - 2019
38. Peter DiFronzo - 2020
39. Marco D'Amico - 2020
40. Lawrence Petitt - 2021
41. James Inendino - 2023
42. Robert Salerno - 2023
43. Joseph Andriacchi - 2024


1. Robert Bellavia
2. Bruno Caruso
3. Frank Caruso
4. Salvatore Cataudella
5. Salvatore DeLaurentis
6. Joseph DiFronzo
7. Rudolph Fratto
8. Nicholas Guzzino
9. Rocco Lombardo
10. Michael Magnafichi
11. James Marcello
12. John Matassa
13. Michael Sarno
14. Michael Spano
15. Albert Vena

I've also been working on the infamous "28 made members" from the 2007 Chicago SAC comment. This is what I have:

1. Living members (as of 27 September 2007) who had already been identified as "made" on available lists (again, assuming the FBI is the source for the 2000 police booklet list members and also assuming that no names were removed from the FBI membership lists -- either due to additional intel or from Nick C's cooperation)

2. Members added by Nick Calabrese because of their involvement in the 1983 ceremony

3. Members added by Nick Calabrese who were *not* part of the '83 ceremony. I had to guess at these by looking at the names on Nick C's threat assessment, coupled with their relative position in the Outfit at the time and came up with Sarno, Spano, and Inendino. Being on the threat assessment meant that Nick was at least familiar with them and possessed information about them that could lead to closer investigation (such as being made). The other four names on the threat assessment that I passed over were Mickey Marcello, Dino Marino, Jerry Scalise, and Paul Spano, who don't quite match the level of the three I chose.

1. Joseph Andriacchi (74)
2. Robert Bellavia (IP, 67) questionable
3. Frank Calabrese, Sr. (IP, 70)
4. Bruno Caruso (63)
5. Frank Caruso (61)
6. James J. Cerone (57) I think he is questionable, as he may be confused with his father/Jack's cousin
7. Marco D'Amico (71) not made, per Magnafichi
8. Sal DeLaurentis (71)
9. John DiFronzo (78)
10. Joseph DiFronzo (72) not made, per Magnafichi
11. Peter DiFronzo (74)
12. Rudy Fratto (63)
13. Joseph Grieco (79)
14. Nicholas Guzzino (66)
15. James Inendino* (IP, 64)
16. Joey Lombardo (IP, 78)
17. Rocco Lombardo (67)
18. Mike Magnafichi (45)
19. James Marcello (IP, 64)
20. Louis Marino (IP, 74)
21. John Matassa, Jr. (56)
22. Lawrence Petitt (79) not made, per Magnafichi
23. Michael Sarno* (49)
24. Robert Salerno (IP, 72) questionable
25. Michael Spano, Sr.* (IP, 66)
26. Michael Talarico (55) probably not made
27. Al Tornabene (84)
28. Angelo Volpe (85)

Again, I'm not arguing vociferously about the veracity of the above names, I'm just trying to pinpoint what the FBI thought at a particular time and place.

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 10:41 am

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:51 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:55 pmI'd say a realistic estimate is 30 to 35, leaning towards the lower end. They barely had 50 to 60 guys in the 80s, so assuming they have the low end of that in 2025 is a bit generous. I do think it's realistic that Sarno had some sort of recruiting drive considering the age and incarceration of many members at that point in time, but it's hard for me to accept two dozen guys.

If the Outfit was at approximately 30 members in 2007, and as many as 20 members have died since then, they actually would have had to make around two dozen guys to be at 30-35 now.

My only push back against this is that even when they had vastly more resources to dedicate to investigating the Outfit, they still under-counted the estimated members by about 10-15 guys. Most of the guys at Nick's making ceremony weren't even listed on the 1985 list, which was nearly two years after he was made. I suppose you could counter and say Nick would be able to give them a more accurate count, but if the 2007 estimate was under-counted by even half a dozen, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they made 10-12 in the intervening 18 years, which makes the figure of 30 at least realistic, especially considering below.

I don't really see where you get 20 guys having died since 2007. I don't even count 10:

Andriacchi
Frank Sr.
John and Pete DiFronzo
Joe Grieco
Lombardo
Lou Marino
Al Tornabene

Any other name has serious doubts about their actual status as a member (D'Amico, Cozzo). I can't go back into the chart post and amend the entries because I can no longer edit the initial post.

Additionally, that there may be some kind of split in Outfit organization may be partly true, but this may also result in confusion about the crew structure. Is it two crews or four crews operating within a split structure? I don't there is reliable evidence pointing either way, so I'm open to both. Vena's title has also been inconsistently applied. During his trial, Steve Mandell was cross-examined and asked by the government “And you knew Albert Vena but didn't know Albert Vena as the boss of the Grand Avenue crew?" so there isn't unanimity there. This is also kind of quibbling, but court documents suggest that Melrose Park and Cicero were combined under Zizzo while Marcello was in prison (and also collectively referred to as "Cicero," which may have just been a moniker for the whole west side of the Outfit). Melrose Park ("Carlisi" crew) is probably the one crew that can be declared defunct with any type of confidence, unless you count whatever constitutes the current West Side/Cicero crew as an evolved version of it. Finally, I can't vouch for his status now, but Toots was named as the "reputed leader" of the Chinatown crew by the Tribune as late as 2010.

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:51 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:55 pmI'd say a realistic estimate is 30 to 35, leaning towards the lower end. They barely had 50 to 60 guys in the 80s, so assuming they have the low end of that in 2025 is a bit generous. I do think it's realistic that Sarno had some sort of recruiting drive considering the age and incarceration of many members at that point in time, but it's hard for me to accept two dozen guys.

If the Outfit was at approximately 30 members in 2007, and as many as 20 members have died since then, they actually would have had to make around two dozen guys to be at 30-35 now.

Coloboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:39 pmIf you add up all of the names that are floated, you can definitely come up with 40 to 50 guys. It’s possible that there are that many inducted, but the real question is how many are actually active in any type of illegal rackets.

Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:55 pmI'd say a realistic estimate is 30 to 35, leaning towards the lower end. They barely had 50 to 60 guys in the 80s, so assuming they have the low end of that in 2025 is a bit generous. I do think it's realistic that Sarno had some sort of recruiting drive considering the age and incarceration of many members at that point in time, but it's hard for me to accept two dozen guys.

Coloboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 18, 2025 5:58 pmThe other big question mark for me is 26th St. or any type of southside crew. Very hard to tell if that is still an active group in anyway. We have plenty of tidbits over the last decade from the other groups, but virtually nothing from them.