THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by B. » Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:17 pm

I forgot about the report where Bonanno is said to have recruited Roselli and Giammona into the plot even though I originally posted it haha. Damn, wish I remembered it when I recorded the episode. Thanks for the reminder.

Here it is for those interested:

I don't know who that CI is offhand. Roselli's involvement makes sense since Bonanno also tried to influence his friends Bomp and Fratianno, but Giammona is like Bonventre where he sort of comes from left field.

As far as your question, I've got no idea really. If Bonanno did reach out to Roselli and Giammona I'd guess it was around the same time as his ruse to get Bomp, Fratianno, and Bonventre to kill Desimone. It's more probable to me he tried the Bomp ruse first since it was underhanded then tried a more direct approach with Roselli/Giammona after that since Desimone also went to NYC about it and that cooled Bonanno off.

In both of those cases though there is no reference to Bonanno sending his own men to "take over" LA, only trying to influence existing LA guys. What's interesting in this one is Roselli went to Desimone about it; Roselli hated Desimone but may have seen the dangerous position Bonanno was putting him in. This is assuming the account is accurate.

There were def concerns about Bonanno's activity in the West for years before all of this too. Giancana and Accardo were recorded in 1959 complaining about Bonanno promoting his son to "boss" (capodecina; Chicago used the literal translation of "capo" = boss) in Arizona and how Bonanno was trying to plant flags. So even though it took until 1961, there looks to have been paranoia that Bonanno was making a move on the West Coast for a while before he tried anything.

by **InCamelot** » Sun Sep 08, 2024 4:18 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:20 pm The references are similar but have Polizzi and LiMandri in slightly different roles. In the one story, they went to LA and kidnapped Polizzi, which makes sense as he was a Desimone loyalist, who claimed ignorance. In the other, Bello attributes the info about the plot to LiMandri who was taken to meet with Bello. I guess both could have happened and it would make sense multiple people got pulled into it given the gravity.

B, are we able to discern from the info out there whether Joe Bonanno attempted to takeover LA using Johnny Roselli and Joe Giammona to help facilitate bringing Bill Bonanno and his 40 men first, or did the attempt at spreading a rumour about car-bombing Bomp come first?

Partially asking because I think the 40-men attempt resulted in the Commission directly ordering him to 'stop', while it seems more like the rumour thing was probably only something the Commission could file in the back of their heads as yet another Bonanno red flag.

by B. » Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:03 am

Thanks a ton, guys. I greatly appreciate the listens and positive feedback

OmarSantista wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:09 pm Great job man. Very intriguing the way the American cosa nostra commission bosses likely checked in on the matter with members of the Grand Consiglio in Sicily. I wonder how much the the commission got involved in just the conversation alone with the consiglio about the two families in Salaparuta. Probably not very much; if at all since the possible delegates they sent were all simply members & 1/3 from different U.S.families (they're rank and geography seem unlikely for them to be advocates). I also wonder if Frank DeSimone knew who was going to visit his cousin and if he gave them instructions on what to say and gift, or if the commission gave the orders to the 3, or if after the commission spoke with the Grand Consiglio; the Grand consiglio told the members how to act and what to gift to Franks cousin.

Don't know that it would have been the Gran Consiglio the American mafia touched base with at the time, as we don't have confirmation that existed in Sicily although it likely did as Allegra referred to an Assemblea in the 1920s which suggests the same bodies existed in Sicily as in the early US (much like Families were structured the same).

1948 is an interesting time period though as the Sicilian Commission as we know it hadn't been created but they did have capi di provincia and presumably some kind of body. It is possible they still used the earlier system but we also know a lot of the wider structure was temporarily loosened / even disbanded under Mussolini then reorganized after WWII so who knows. Much as Bruno said the American Commission had to check in with the Sicilian Commission in the 1960s, something similar no doubt played out regardless of what it was formally.

I wouldn't doubt Rosario DeSimone's death being attributed to the spike in killings of the DeSimones in Salaparuta 2 years later I think you said. Why would more than one die if there wasn't a power struggle; is how those things work especially when an international mafioso from that town dies 2 years prior. Hopefully like you said someone can come across Italian articles on the matter for the concrete info/evidence. Really great show, about not just DeSimone but the LA family, thanks! Imo it actually had more of a tone like a mob archeologist show rather than your personal audio episodes both are great.

Thanks again. Rosario's death in my opinion wouldn't have played a direct role (especially given we know nothing about the actual conflict) but the death of an important relative/advocate even in another country could definitely make it easier to kill his relatives / get away with it as these important guys in the US still had names that meant something back home.

As the alleged murderer (or person who ordered it) shared a surname with Rosario's first wife's mother (I misspoke about the relation in the episode), it is possible like I said that the Desimones were relatives to some degree of both sides. One possibility to consider too is that although Frank expressed sympathy to his cousin, he was actually unsympathetic to their cause and understood the killer's motivation.

With the three Americans who visited I wouldn't be surprised if they were just guys who happened to be traveling to Sicily at the time and were directed to check in on it. Based on what's been outlined by other sources that's the impression I've had, that when something needed to be communicated to Sicily it was often done simply by someone happening to go there. Especially likely if it was the three NJ/Chicago Riberese guys, though it should be mentioned Amari did have a son-in-law who joined the LA Family and he died in LA. I should have mentioned that in the episode haha.

by **OmarSantista** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:09 pm

Great job man. Very intriguing the way the American cosa nostra commission bosses likely checked in on the matter with members of the Grand Consiglio in Sicily. I wonder how much the the commission got involved in just the conversation alone with the consiglio about the two families in Salaparuta. Probably not very much; if at all since the possible delegates they sent were all simply members & 1/3 from different U.S.families (they're rank and geography seem unlikely for them to be advocates). I also wonder if Frank DeSimone knew who was going to visit his cousin and if he gave them instructions on what to say and gift, or if the commission gave the orders to the 3, or if after the commission spoke with the Grand Consiglio; the Grand consiglio told the members how to act and what to gift to Franks cousin.

I wouldn't doubt Rosario DeSimone's death being attributed to the spike in killings of the DeSimones in Salaparuta 2 years later I think you said. Why would more than one die if there wasn't a power struggle; is how those things work especially when an international mafioso from that town dies 2 years prior. Hopefully like you said someone can come across Italian articles on the matter for the concrete info/evidence. Really great show, about not just DeSimone but the LA family, thanks! Imo it actually had more of a tone like a mob archeologist show rather than your personal audio episodes both are great.

by **Proletarian187** » Mon Aug 26, 2024 1:58 pm

I have nothing in particular to say, just wanted to share my appreciation as I dove into your archive today.

These are a great listen. Both informative and entertaining, you have a gift when it comes to story telling. I like the rambling, conversational style. Feels kinda like mafia camp fire stories.

Went through DeSimone, DeCavalcante and Maranzano today. Will plow through more tomorrow in my wheel loader.

I'm gonna stop the praising now before I start sounding like Joe Bonanno describing Maranzano: "B was a dashing man. Women wanted to be around him, men wanted to be him. He killed countless mafiosi with the wave of a pinky finger, his stunning presence and his seven mile leaping kicks..."

That stuff had me chuckling out loud. My wife thinks I'm a nutcase, thanks for that btw..

by **JoePuzzles234** » Mon Aug 26, 2024 3:14 am

B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 7:28 pm Re: John LiMandri showing up on a Gambino member list. Do you recall when this was and was it a typical FBI membership list?

That stands out because LiMandri's maternal uncle (also his father's cousin) was California-based Gambino member Michael Pecoraro. Later Joe Isgro became a CA-based Gambino member as well, but in LiMandri's case there was blood relation to a CA-based member. No idea if the list you're referring to was accurate but if he did affiliate with the Gambinos it wouldn't be random.

Still a mystery to me which Family their father Marco was originally with before LA also. He was certainly a transfer and some have speculated he was Gambino like his brother-in-law/cousin as he had other close ties to Gambino figures like Joe Riccobono, but he may have been first made into the Morello Family given his father-in-law/uncle sat on the admin. LiMandri also had ties to Lucchese figures like Pinzolo, their in-laws the Dippolitos starting out as Lucchese associates in NYC before moving to LA, and of course the local Newark members when he lived there. I've never seen anything definitively placing him with a specific Family in NYC/NJ and he was close to a wide range of people.

Joe LiMandri also had ties to Chicago and continued to do business in NYC while in California. A lot going on with them below the surface.

John LiMandri is included as a Gambino member in this 1983 Senate hearing document. Notably, Joseph Sica is listed here as a Lucchese member which is probably inaccurate. I think there are also some other issues with known members being affiliated with the incorrect families.

I had always assumed Marco LiMandri was a also Gambino member because of his brother-in-law and then John was included in this list based off that somehow. I don't think he was ever a member of any family personally.

by B. » Sun Aug 25, 2024 7:28 pm

Re: John LiMandri showing up on a Gambino member list. Do you recall when this was and was it a typical FBI membership list?

That stands out because LiMandri's maternal uncle (also his father's cousin) was California-based Gambino member Michael Pecoraro. Later Joe Isgro became a CA-based Gambino member as well, but in LiMandri's case there was blood relation to a CA-based member. No idea if the list you're referring to was accurate but if he did affiliate with the Gambinos it wouldn't be random.

Still a mystery to me which Family their father Marco was originally with before LA also. He was certainly a transfer and some have speculated he was Gambino like his brother-in-law/cousin as he had other close ties to Gambino figures like Joe Riccobono, but he may have been first made into the Morello Family given his father-in-law/uncle sat on the admin. LiMandri also had ties to Lucchese figures like Pinzolo, their in-laws the Dippolitos starting out as Lucchese associates in NYC before moving to LA, and of course the local Newark members when he lived there. I've never seen anything definitively placing him with a specific Family in NYC/NJ and he was close to a wide range of people.

Joe LiMandri also had ties to Chicago and continued to do business in NYC while in California. A lot going on with them below the surface.

by B. » Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:55 am

Here is the thread if anyone is interested:

viewtopic.php?p=250680

Bomp said LiMandri did want to induct new members but didn't say who.

The timing is interesting as around this time Tucson informants reported that Joe Bonanno was making his last-ditch effort to be reinstated and was still obsessing about taking over/influencing California. Given Joe LiMandri surfaced in Bonanno's early 1960s plot against Desimone and the other ties the LA San Diego members had to Bonanno previously, it makes you wonder if Bonanno had been in someone's ear encouraging division in SoCal.

As I mentioned in the thread, during the period leading up to this Tony Lima was also under the false impression he'd be officially taking over the San Fran Family again and had plans to induct a number of associates up there but like with San Diego no names are mentioned. It is an intriguing bit of info, as like you said the San Diego crew was well-past dwindling by the 1970s and San Fran was similarly fading quickly but at least a couple guys in those areas had an interest in reinvigorating their groups at the time, apparently even having new candidates for membership.

Got to wonder why some San Diego associates weren't going to be made as part of the LA Family anyway since they "needed" recruits to keep the decina alive. The implication is the idea to make new people hinged on San Diego breaking off into its own Family. Maybe the LA leadership didn't want to induct new people down there, as that seems to have been the issue in San Fran -- Lanza didn't want to induct people and keep the Family active while Lima did.

by **JoePuzzles234** » Sun Aug 25, 2024 5:31 am

motorfab wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 12:21 pm Joe & B.: viewtopic.php?p=249624&hilit=LiMandri+Polizzi#p249624

Thanks for the link Motorfab, I hadn't seen this part of your thread before

B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:20 pm Be interesting if the LiMandris had been involved in Bonanno's plot as later Marco LiMandri was carrying updates to the LA Family about the Bonanno conflict. Later too Joe LiMandri wanted San Diego to break off as its own borgata in the 1970s.

Might be off-topic (my apologies if it is not relevant) but LiMandri's San Diego family is such a strange idea. I think I posted something similar when you shared the Bompensiero info before but with limited activity among the "weak sister" members (at least according to Fratianno), one has to wonder if Joe LiMandri did not plan on maybe inducting some of the more active associates in the area.

Some local guys that come to mind are his brother John Michael (at one point included on a Gambino membership list for whatever reason), nephew Marco J. LiMandri (who had some pornography connections to Michael Rizzitello I believe) and then John Aquilante (who was later ostensibly a Los Angeles member).

B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 9:34 pm According to records, Joe Civello's maternal grandmother's maiden name was DeSimone/DiSimone back in Salaparuta. The relation appears to come through Civello's mother and this is also what Civello told investigators:

So according to Civello, his mother was a first cousin of Rosario DeSimone which should mean Joe's grandmother was a sister of Rosario's father given the grandmother was a DeSimone herself.

Great find here, cool to see that there is an actual relation on top of all the other connections.

by B. » Sat Aug 24, 2024 9:34 pm

JoePuzzles234 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:20 am Misc:
Of some further note is that Justin Cascio has mentioned that DeSimone might’ve not been actually related to Joe Civello but I don’t know if it’s been addressed on his website or any place like that. His relative Tommy Palermo was well-connected to the family regardless.

According to records, Joe Civello's maternal grandmother's maiden name was DeSimone/DiSimone back in Salaparuta. The relation appears to come through Civello's mother and this is also what Civello told investigators:

So according to Civello, his mother was a first cousin of Rosario DeSimone which should mean Joe's grandmother was a sister of Rosario's father given the grandmother was a DeSimone herself.

by B. » Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:20 pm

Haha, of course it's a conversation I was already in. Thank you.

The references are similar but have Polizzi and LiMandri in slightly different roles. In the one story, they went to LA and kidnapped Polizzi, which makes sense as he was a Desimone loyalist, who claimed ignorance. In the other, Bello attributes the info about the plot to LiMandri who was taken to meet with Bello. I guess both could have happened and it would make sense multiple people got pulled into it given the gravity.

Be interesting if the LiMandris had been involved in Bonanno's plot as later Marco LiMandri was carrying updates to the LA Family about the Bonanno conflict. Later too Joe LiMandri wanted San Diego to break off as its own borgata in the 1970s.

--

Joe -- yep that was me who pointed out that "Gerlarmo" Cammisano is likely a butchered namesake of Girolamo Adamo. I'm not positive but I believe the Cammisanos were from Camporeale so they were also from historic Trapani and paesans of Nick Licata and the Orlando Sciortinos if so, along with other Camporealesi in KC.

by **motorfab** » Sat Aug 24, 2024 12:21 pm

Joe & B.: viewtopic.php?p=249624&hilit=LiMandri+Polizzi#p249624

by **JoePuzzles234** » Sat Aug 24, 2024 11:50 am

B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:46 am The report I was referring to does state clearly it was Angelo Polizzi they kidnapped and interrogated about the murder plot:

Maybe there is another report where LiMandri is said to be involved? Sometimes names differ in different accounts but the one I've always used as reference says they did kidnap Angelo Polizzi.

Very interesting to see this difference, I wonder if there were two separate kidnappings then. I've attached the LiMandri version here, there is also some further insight into what happened to Bello according to Bompensiero (not sure how accurately it lines up with his actual death).

vito bello joe limandri.png

Personally I believe the "rape" story was told for dramatic effect though I'd be curious if Reid had an actual report from a police informant and who it was. Other sources indicate there was a relationship of some sort, at most.

I've always thought the same, as it better fits with the whole "grim reapers" narrative. I think if it was really the case, Fratianno or Bompensiero would have mentioned it somewhere. Possibly even someone like Piscopo, given that he brought up the Jack Dragna and Annette Eckhardt relationship as part of the family's "downfall" when cooperating (he incorrectly remembered her being a teenager or something along those lines).

And yes, I've seen that about Joe Adamo and Mirabile. Not sure who the source was on that from memory, but I believe it's part of the story involving Adamo fleeing California for a time. One of the places it says he went was Chicago if I remember right. The Adamos were of course heavily connected to Kansas City and Springfield, Momo probably being a member in one or both of those places before LA; Momo's naturalization was actually witnessed by an obscure figure Ciaccio I suspect may have been the Springfield boss before Zito. That he was living with Willie Cammisano (an LA transfer from KC at the time in San Diego) makes sense based on his history with KC and the Midwest. Joe Adamo was also connected to Detroit, their Alcamese heritage fitting in there.

Joseph Adamo and his wife did end up going to Chicago after his issue with Mirabile, also not 100% sure who the source there was as the FBI appears to have had several San Diego informants over that time period.

There are remnants of the Adamo-Cammisano relationship even nowadays with William Snr's son Gerlarmo Peter (KC associate?) being named after Momo - I think you have maybe posted about that before so I am probably preaching to the choir there lol.

Be good to know if the Civellos were actually related or not. We know "cousin" can take on a general use, though between the Salaparuta connection, their visit to Apalachin together, mutual family history in New Orleans, and Desimone being used to communicate Commission messages to Civello, they were no doubt close and the families certainly look to have had history together whether it was an extended relation, paesan connection, or something closer.

It would definitely go a long way with all those connections. The last time I interacted with Mr. Cascio he mentioned plans to cover the Stellinos after his recent Licata article, so maybe over time he will clarify more details for Southern California.

Just also want to reiterate how much I enjoyed this episode, really cool to see someone deep dive DeSimone

by B. » Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:46 am

Thanks, Joe. You can always feel free to add/correct/discuss. That's the only reason I do these, to invite discussion.

--

The report I was referring to does state clearly it was Angelo Polizzi they kidnapped and interrogated about the murder plot:

Maybe there is another report where LiMandri is said to be involved? Sometimes names differ in different accounts but the one I've always used as reference says they did kidnap Angelo Polizzi.

--

Personally I believe the "rape" story was told for dramatic effect though I'd be curious if Reid had an actual report from a police informant and who it was. Other sources indicate there was a relationship of some sort, at most.

And yes, I've seen that about Joe Adamo and Mirabile. Not sure who the source was on that from memory, but I believe it's part of the story involving Adamo fleeing California for a time. One of the places it says he went was Chicago if I remember right. The Adamos were of course heavily connected to Kansas City and Springfield, Momo probably being a member in one or both of those places before LA; Momo's naturalization was actually witnessed by an obscure figure Ciaccio I suspect may have been the Springfield boss before Zito. That he was living with Willie Cammisano (an LA transfer from KC at the time in San Diego) makes sense based on his history with KC and the Midwest. Joe Adamo was also connected to Detroit, their Alcamese heritage fitting in there.

--

Be good to know if the Civellos were actually related or not. We know "cousin" can take on a general use, though between the Salaparuta connection, their visit to Apalachin together, mutual family history in New Orleans, and Desimone being used to communicate Commission messages to Civello, they were no doubt close and the families certainly look to have had history together whether it was an extended relation, paesan connection, or something closer.

by **JoePuzzles234** » Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:20 am

B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 2:05 pm New audio episode:

"Desimone Deaths in Salaparuta?"

https://mafia.substack.com/p/desimone-d ... salaparuta

Exploring Frank Desimone in my usual rambling style. First half is general discussion of Frank Desimone, second half is the real point of the episode: that Desimone relatives reportedly suffered a grim fate back in Sicily.

Managed to take a listen, really awesome stuff

I hope it’s appropriate to post in this thread but here are some things I thought would be good for discussion:

Bello/Bonventre:
Just want to point out that I think you made an error re. the Bompensiero-Bonventre-Bello kidnapping story – it is my understanding that the member they grabbed was actually Joseph LiMandri, who then was forced into an apartment with Vito Bello where he admitted to Bomp that he was put up to the bomb plot by Bonanno.

Another obscure Los Angeles member that Fratianno was really impressed by was Rosolino “Sam Bruno” Bartolotta, who had been a Detroit member. He was close with Biaggio Bonventre (possibly because of the Michigan connections?) and was involved with him in several attempts on Mickey Cohen and his group.

Marie Adamo:
Regarding DeSimone’s relationship with Marie Adamo, the sexual assault myth originates from the Ed Reid’s The Grim Reapers and simply cites a “police informant” talking about an apparent dispute between Girolamo Adamo and DeSimone.

In her own FBI interview, Marie never mentions any sort of assault and instead actually notes that DeSimone had no “steady girlfriends” so their relationship might’ve been limited despite apparently being an open secret (Adamo is described as a known cornuto/cuckold by a later FBI source).

Joe Adamo:
Pretty interestingly we see another San Diego FBI source state that Girolamo’s brother Joseph was also involved in a somewhat similar situation with Anthony Mirabile in the 1940s. In settling a whiskey bootlegging dispute, Mirabile “had relations” with Joe Adamo’s wife who later received money from him to buy into a bar.

Joseph was notably not yet a member at that time (inducted 1952).

Misc:
Of some further note is that Justin Cascio has mentioned that DeSimone might’ve not been actually related to Joe Civello but I don’t know if it’s been addressed on his website or any place like that. His relative Tommy Palermo was well-connected to the family regardless.

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