THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Don Mosseria** » Sat May 20, 2023 9:49 am

CornerBoy wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:36 am lots of half jewish, half italian ppl as many italian men married jewish women.

That's been common for the last 90 yrs

Yeah, fair point. I think the point being made was that while there have been Italian-Jewish marriages, and there have been many important Jewish associates, not many half-Italian half-Jewish people seem to have been inducted (or half-Hispanic for example, which would seem to speak against Catholicism being the deciding factor). John Gotti Jr. being 25% Jewish is a clear example, but the question was are there other examples? Half-Irish seems to be the most common (though I have to say, a lot of these apparently half-Irish people seem to have names that actually trace back to England, not Ireland - Porter, Veasey, possibly Abrams).

by **CornerBoy** » Sat May 20, 2023 5:36 am

lots of half jewish, half italian ppl as many italian men married jewish women.

That's been common for the last 90 yrs

by **PolackTony** » Thu May 18, 2023 11:33 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 7:47 pm
Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 5:38 am Would be interesting to know in relation to B’s question above about what ethnicities were deemed acceptable to be mixed with Italian.
The Italians mixed with the Irish quite a bit and Irish was much more acceptable than most other ethnicities due to the fact they were Roman Catholic just like the Italians. Religion was a major major factor in those days.

Religion was a huge factor. Catholics as a whole, and particularly immigrants, were held with suspicion by the Anglo-Protestant majority back in the day. Depending on the community, Italians naturally also readily intermarried with Polish, Catholic Germans, Croatians, along with the Irish. By the 1950s, there were a lot of mixed families like this and as people moved from the old inner-city ethnic ghettoes to the suburbs they often attended mixed Parishes. While one sees some marriages with Anglos, Jews, and Greeks, these were much less common, despite the fact that Italian mobsters often had no problem working closely with Jewish and Greek gangsters.

I’m not sure that a guy with a Jewish mother would necessarily be less likely to be inducted than a guy with an Irish or Polish mother, as there were just far fewer of the former around, though at least being Catholic on both sides would make you less “alien” I’d imagine.

by **johnny_scootch** » Thu May 18, 2023 7:47 pm

Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 5:38 am Would be interesting to know in relation to B’s question above about what ethnicities were deemed acceptable to be mixed with Italian.

The Italians mixed with the Irish quite a bit and Irish was much more acceptable than most other ethnicities due to the fact they were Roman Catholic just like the Italians. Religion was a major major factor in those days.

by **CornerBoy** » Thu May 18, 2023 8:26 am

who gives a shit iff he's a rican or not. I wanna know if he's nonbinary or not

by **Don Mosseria** » Thu May 18, 2023 5:45 am

Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 5:38 am
Abrams is a surname related to Abrahams, Abram, Abrahm and Abraham. It developed independently in the Jewish diaspora, England, Germany and the Netherlands.

Sorry, my mistake. I misread it as it developed “in the Jewish diaspora IN England…”, but it means it developed “in the Jewish diaspora AND IN England…”. Ignore my previous message.

by **Don Mosseria** » Thu May 18, 2023 5:38 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 6:30 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 3:55 pm
Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:34 pm Thanks. Do you know from elsewhere that SanFilippo was half Irish?
I can't remember where I got that from honestly, I guess there is a chance I totally made it up in my head considering the blonde hair, the fair skin (reason he was called Whitey) and the fact he grew up in the Irish neighborhood of Bath Beach. Bath Beach was all Irish before the Italians totally displaced them.

Maybe one of the genealogical experts can do a search on Jennie Abrams and come up with something.
I recall looking into SanFilippo before and it wasn’t clear to me whether Jennie Abrams was specifically Irish or Anglo/Scottish, German. But she was definitely not Italian.

You don’t think she was Jewish then? According to Wikipedia:

Abrams is a surname related to Abrahams, Abram, Abrahm and Abraham. It developed independently in the Jewish diaspora, England, Germany and the Netherlands.

Would be interesting to know in relation to B’s question above about what ethnicities were deemed acceptable to be mixed with Italian. What software do you use for genealogical research? Ancestry.com? I may have a go myself. I’ve done some personal family tree research on it before.

by **PolackTony** » Wed May 17, 2023 6:30 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 3:55 pm
Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:34 pm Thanks. Do you know from elsewhere that SanFilippo was half Irish?
I can't remember where I got that from honestly, I guess there is a chance I totally made it up in my head considering the blonde hair, the fair skin (reason he was called Whitey) and the fact he grew up in the Irish neighborhood of Bath Beach. Bath Beach was all Irish before the Italians totally displaced them.

Maybe one of the genealogical experts can do a search on Jennie Abrams and come up with something.

I recall looking into SanFilippo before and it wasn’t clear to me whether Jennie Abrams was specifically Irish or Anglo/Scottish, German. But she was definitely not Italian.

by **johnny_scootch** » Wed May 17, 2023 3:55 pm

Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 12:34 pm Thanks. Do you know from elsewhere that SanFilippo was half Irish?

I can't remember where I got that from honestly, I guess there is a chance I totally made it up in my head considering the blonde hair, the fair skin (reason he was called Whitey) and the fact he grew up in the Irish neighborhood of Bath Beach. Bath Beach was all Irish before the Italians totally displaced them.

Maybe one of the genealogical experts can do a search on Jennie Abrams and come up with something.

by **Don Mosseria** » Wed May 17, 2023 2:55 pm

B. wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 10:42 pm - In 1986, Pittsburgh inducts Chucky Porter who is 3/4 Italian but his paternal grandfather was not.

Great timeline on evolving membership criteria. One point re. Chucky Porter apparently being 3/4 Italian - this is uncertain.

Paul Hodos, author of Steel City Mafia, told me in the comments under the Archaeologists episode on which he appeared that the 75% figure was based on claims made by Porter himself, but had not been independently verified (at least as far as Paul knew, though if you guys have verified this, please let me know). Paul told me that he had traced Porters mother’s family to Avellino, so they are definitely Italian. His father was from the San Antonio area of Texas, and probably his father’s father too. The Porter name apparently has a long heritage in that region.

When it comes to his father’s mother, who should be Italian if his 75% claims are true, things are a little murky. Paul had found her on the census as Kate Porter, her father being from Texas and her mother from Kentucky. He did not have her maiden name. It is possible that both halves of this Texas/Kentucky great-grandparent couple were Italian. On the other hand, it is possible that his father was not actually Italian in the slightest, and Chucky was inventing an additional 25% Italian heritage.

by **LarryC** » Wed May 17, 2023 2:13 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 11:46 pm
B. wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 10:52 pm I feel like it was on the boards pre-Garcia but don't remember exactly. People on the boards who claim personal knowledge of Bronx mafia circles have definitely claimed it independently of Garcia.

For whatever weird reason, it seems like people want to believe it or just can't reconcile that some Italian names don't end in a vowel. Some people still think Frank Martines in Philly is Latino.
The Martines thing is bound to be confusing to people who don’t know that it’s also a Sicilian surname, like Campo.

Pretty clear that the family just added an “s” to their name randomly. As you are well aware, that’s tame in light of what often happened to Italian surnames in the US. Campo could’ve turned into “Gamba” or been Anglicized to “Campbell”. But because someone decided to change it to “Campos”, now people forever want to believe that it must be Spanish. If they had instead turned into “Campbell”, we’d now be having to prove that they weren’t Irish.

I don't understand why people think that "es" and "is" surname endings can't be Italian. Sicily is full of them as you know.

by **Don Mosseria** » Wed May 17, 2023 2:12 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 10:47 pm I mean, if the mob were to ever make a half-PR guy it would be in the Bx!

Was anyone actually circulating this claim until Garcia said it first? Or was it just some bullshit neighborhood rumor and Garcia picked it up that way?

It goes back before Garcia. On February 12 2004, Jerry Capeci wrote:

“Although the Campos surname suggests a Greek ancestry, his father’s lineage is Italian, according to a law enforcement source who told Gang Land the crime family conducted an extensive investigation into his heritage before he was “made.””
https://www.ganglandnews.com/members/column369.htm [behind a paywall]

Interesting that they select Greek as the possible heritage of the Campos name here rather than Spanish/Puerto Rican. However, the next year, on June 16 2005, Capeci wrote:

“Campos, whose surname suggests Greek or Hispanic heritage – the Gambinos checked and determined his lineage was Italian before they inducted him…”
https://www.ganglandnews.com/members/column437.htm [behind a paywall]

So he has progressed here to include Hispanic. And I guess in the Bronx, if you’re guessing Hispanic, Puerto Rican would be what people would default to? According to Pogo and Angelo, Andrew Campos was made in 2003 (https://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtop ... 62#p213462), so at the time Capeci was writing, this alleged investigation by the family would be relatively current news. This shows uncertainty about his heritage goes back to the time he was made.

I definitely hear what you say about Italian names getting changed a lot in America. But I also don’t find it surprising that with a Spanish looking name, people will question it. I think it makes sense that the family might go a little further making sure in this case than they would with someone called Pennisi, as described by B above. Hence Capeci’s description of an “extensive” investigation. I would also guess Hispanisization of a name is less common that Anglisization, though as you say, who knows how an S could get added on to the name - could be anything?

In any case, it looks pretty certain they are Italian, and an S was just added on at some point. Nice one on the genealogical work - I’ve got to get on those primary research techniques myself. So it’s good to be able to put this one to bed.

by **Rocco** » Wed May 17, 2023 1:05 pm

eboli wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:49 pm In an early 1980s report on Gatto, the FBI acknowledges that he runs his crew through Grecco.

1.jpg

In a report years later, the New Jersey Commission of Investigation said Grecco was a Genovese member.

2.png

I remember throwing up in a plant at LT's in Brielle NJ on RT 71 in the early 90s. That place has a new biz in it every 2yrs..

by **Don Mosseria** » Wed May 17, 2023 12:34 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:03 am
Don Mosseria wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 8:17 pm Though with the other examples I’m aware of it seems like that was more of an 80s/90s thing than in the 70s?
LCN Bios has the half Irish Paul SanFilippo being made into the Gambino family around 1955.

https://lcnbios.blogspot.com/2018/02/bi ... o.html?m=1

Okay, that’s very interesting. Thanks. Do you know from elsewhere that SanFilippo was half Irish? It doesn’t say what ethnicity his non-Italian mother was in his LCN Bios article, only that it was only his father that was Italian. It gives his mother’s name as Jennie Abrams SanFilippo. Abrams sounds a lot more Jewish than Irish, though you never know based on name along (as we are discussing re Campos). Jewish ancestry would be interesting speaking to B’s question above.

by **Tonyd621** » Wed May 17, 2023 9:18 am

It was under some Sopranos thread I believe
As I said STUBBS posted this and the context to me sounds like he is certain but of course its text so I'm assuming;

He’s Italian, this has been discussed elsewhere in other threads.

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