THE BLACK HAND FORUM

I read Gleason's book which had some interesting tidbits from the feds side. I believe they want to avoid id the informant but know eventually with FOIL requests it will come out.

Gleason’s book can be previewed on Google Books here. The part about the bug starts about page 137.

No mention of who tipped the feds off to the apartment, unfortunately. Also says Netty Cirelli likely was out of town for Thanksgiving week, so that’s when the feds planted the bug. They already had previously tapped her phone, so they were able to determine when she had left town as the phone stopped being used.

Also, her nephew Norman Dupont was a Gambino associate and was also the caretaker of the Ravenite. He’s currently doing life for murder.

I swear it was said in another book and on documentaries that after they kept noticing audio drop outs and certain people (Gotti) not talking in the club when other certain people were seen visiting, the agents extended their bugs to the vestibule, back hallway/entrance, and other 'public' areas of the building.

When that bore no fruit as well, they were stumped until an informant told them he was using an apartment ... but they didn't know which specific apartment. They had to looked up the rent roll for the building and figured out it after seeing the Cirelli last name. From there they supposedly coaxed her out by pretending to be ConEd doing gas line work.

Her great nephew was interviewed on one of the many little mob genre YouTube channels, and while he was a pretty distant relative who himself grew up like 70 miles east of the Ravenite, and didn't know much, he also said he heard through other fam members that she was lured out of the unit by agents pretending to be ConEd workers and they actually put her and a friend up at a hotel somewhere, all expenses paid.

I feel like it was also said on another doc that they broke in to the place over the holidays when they knew she would be traveling, though. Who knows (well if anyone does, it's probably Gleeson lol)

There were so many damn people in and out of that club that it could have been anyone. It didn't necessarily have to be someone top echelon and high level ... unless Gleeson is saying the info came from someone who claimed to have met Gotti in the apt personally? I haven't read Gleeson's book yet. I always thought / heard the informant tipped them to the idea that a unit upstairs was being used, but didn't know which one ... which would mean the informant was a fairly low level associate or simple card player / gambler who hung out there

A nyc property listing says building has 18 units. Assuming that means apartments, in any event, building has 1 commercial unit, so maybe means 17 apartments. Gleeson book made it seem very clear there was a CI that gave the intel on the apartment. And fact you no longer hears Gotti in an incredibly loud, old, poor acoustic social club, wouldn’t necessarily mean he left the club and went elsewhere inside the building.

It’s such an intrusion to install a bug in this old woman’s apt, I can’t imagine a judge would sign it based on some process of eliminating which arguably couldn’t actually deduce to a single apt vs 10+ other apartments or so.

I'm leaning process of elimination. They new gotti was up there. Anyone know how many apartments were above 2 4 6???

dave wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:57 pm

TSNYC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:07 am Clearly somebody (CI) gave up the apt. They wouldn’t have known about it otherwise. It wasn’t an imaginary CI, as there was no other way they’d be able to figure it out. What, plant bugs in all the buildings units on the off chance an apt May be used by the crew.

From all the Gotti documentaries, the agents made it seem like they figured out where Gotti was meeting over a period of time after hearing his voice disappear at certain moments, surveillance capturing Mrs Cirella leave during those moments, background checks on her and the other tenants, etc.

38:00 - 39:40

https://youtu.be/c9XOAWZEgY4

Can you get a warrant based on that though? I would think that would be a tough sell considering you're asking to wire up this old lady's home. Would probably have to point to some info coming from a CI but I'm not a lawyer so who knows. In theory they could have just figured out and then made up a fake CI they probably did stuff like that all the time.

TSNYC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:07 am Clearly somebody (CI) gave up the apt. They wouldn’t have known about it otherwise. It wasn’t an imaginary CI, as there was no other way they’d be able to figure it out. What, plant bugs in all the buildings units on the off chance an apt May be used by the crew.

From all the Gotti documentaries, the agents made it seem like they figured out where Gotti was meeting over a period of time after hearing his voice disappear at certain moments, surveillance capturing Mrs Cirella leave during those moments, background checks on her and the other tenants, etc.

38:00 - 39:40

https://youtu.be/c9XOAWZEgY4

Gleeson book mentions conte. I think said something like he expressed interest in cooperating and May have met with agents but in the end wouldn’t discuss anything criminal.

Clearly somebody (CI) gave up the apt. They wouldn’t have known about it otherwise. It wasn’t an imaginary CI, as there was no other way they’d be able to figure it out. What, plant bugs in all the buildings units on the off chance an apt May be used by the crew.

Does anyone think Patsy Conte was a possible CI?

Tonyd621 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:11 am Can it be possible Decicco? I know he got hit before but he was always rumored to be an informant and maybe they were using the apartment building long before it came to the attention of everyone

That apartment was being used for private conversations going back to when it was Neil’s club.

Can it be possible Decicco? I know he got hit before but he was always rumored to be an informant and maybe they were using the apartment building long before it came to the attention of everyone

Bruno187 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:30 am

NYNighthawk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:45 am Just finished Gleason's book and it coincided with the 20th anniversary of John's passing.

I always wondered who gave up the apt to the FBI. And when I listened to the tapes it always amazes me when Gotti and Gravano talk about the Castellano hit in front of Frankie Locs and deny knowing who did it.

How embarrassing it must be for Locascio to be kept in the dark about that hit when they used 7-10 shooters and back up people but not tell him all the facts.

I'm pretty sure Frank Locascio knew all about it, but was just observing proper LCN protocol and not acknowledging anything about a murder. Vinny Artuso, who wasn't even made yet, but was with Frank in his Bronx crew was one of the shooters, so it stands to reason Frank knew. Just my opinion of course.

+1 Your'e right about Vinny being in Loc's crew. But how silly it must have been in hindsight - three men sitting there - they all know the truth - but they spin a tale in front of 1 of them. And that person knows the truth as well. If you don't talk about murders or hits - how do you get made then. Someone proposing you has to tell others in charge that you did a hit.

NYNighthawk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:45 am Just finished Gleason's book and it coincided with the 20th anniversary of John's passing.

I always wondered who gave up the apt to the FBI. And when I listened to the tapes it always amazes me when Gotti and Gravano talk about the Castellano hit in front of Frankie Locs and deny knowing who did it.

How embarrassing it must be for Locascio to be kept in the dark about that hit when they used 7-10 shooters and back up people but not tell him all the facts.

I'm pretty sure Frank Locascio knew all about it, but was just observing proper LCN protocol and not acknowledging anything about a murder. Vinny Artuso, who wasn't even made yet, but was with Frank in his Bronx crew was one of the shooters, so it stands to reason Frank knew. Just my opinion of course.

I still believe to this day that the TEI who gave up the apt. got a big financial reward for that info, he had to - it brought down Gotti finally and caused Gravano to flip.

How difficult to get a search warrant? How difficult to get any "anonymous source" to say what you want? How difficult to pass the Bank Secrecy Act that bypasses the 4th Amendment search and seizure by having a private entity perform a warrantless search?
The source is the bartender's girlfriend. Is that really strong enough? Yes, when every federal judge is a former federal prosecutor.