THE BLACK HAND FORUM

cavita wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 11:02 am

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 6:14 pm Don’t forget the Outfit had a crew in East St Louis that was led by Buster Wortman and later Art Berne. They answered directly to the Outfit. That’s as southern Illinois as you can get. On a wiretap Art Berne is heard telling Jesse Stoneking that Trupiano in St Louis answered to Chicago just like them.

Also, as mentioned earlier, they had Fratto in Iowa. It later came out that Fratto was a CI for the feds. In the 1940s the Outfit sent people out to Dallas Tx. From my understanding it didn’t work out. So there was expansion efforts. Some successful and some not. Springfield has always been a mystery. I heard conflicting things about them. That they answered to Chicago and that they didn’t. I also heard that Zito was a last minute pick to go to Appalachia bc someone else canceled. Can’t remember. Might have been Rockford or a Chicago guy.

Rockford has been named in the past as a crew of the Outfit and the FBI has lumped them together multiple times. I think they are separate but who knows if they paid a tax at one time.

Outfit always had their hands in Wisconsin as late as the late 90s and early 2000s when the Cicero crew got busted.

I have an FBI report that stated Augie Maniaci told his FBI handlers, regarding Rockford LCN member Phil Cannella, that "he could not specifically recall what CANNELLA did to warrant membership. He said that it is his recollection that there was some trouble in Southern Illinois regarding some sort of counterfeiting operation which CANNELLA went down and “settled.”" I'm curious as to if this was in relation to any of Wortman's or Berne's dealings. This would have been approximately 1953 or so.
The Apalachin situation was that Rockford boss Tony Musso was dying of cancer and asked Springfield boss Frank Zito to attend on behalf of Rockford.

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 6:14 pm Don’t forget the Outfit had a crew in East St Louis that was led by Buster Wortman and later Art Berne. They answered directly to the Outfit. That’s as southern Illinois as you can get. On a wiretap Art Berne is heard telling Jesse Stoneking that Trupiano in St Louis answered to Chicago just like them.

Also, as mentioned earlier, they had Fratto in Iowa. It later came out that Fratto was a CI for the feds. In the 1940s the Outfit sent people out to Dallas Tx. From my understanding it didn’t work out. So there was expansion efforts. Some successful and some not. Springfield has always been a mystery. I heard conflicting things about them. That they answered to Chicago and that they didn’t. I also heard that Zito was a last minute pick to go to Appalachia bc someone else canceled. Can’t remember. Might have been Rockford or a Chicago guy.

Rockford has been named in the past as a crew of the Outfit and the FBI has lumped them together multiple times. I think they are separate but who knows if they paid a tax at one time.

Outfit always had their hands in Wisconsin as late as the late 90s and early 2000s when the Cicero crew got busted.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 11:06 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 5:54 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 5:23 am Rockford and Springfield had their own families.

Honestly, there isn't much else in Illinois as the state is pretty rural outside of Chicago and a few larger cities. I figure there was more than enough money to go around in the Chicago metro area and the neighboring counties and suburbs (remember, they also controlled Lake, McHenry, and DuPage Counties as well as Northwest Indiana, which is a pretty big swath of territory for one family).

To put things in perspective, Chicago had the entire metro area of the second largest city in the country, and a major global center of finance and business (as well as the largest concentration of Italian-Americans outside of the NYC-Philly megalopolis), to itself, wherein they exacted street taxes from a wide range of illicit and semi-legitimate businesses as well as ran their own numerous and highly lucrative rackets directly and controlled a vast network of connected businesses, Union locals, etc. If anything, Chicago probably, arguably, had the biggest ratio of territory/operations to organization of any family.

This imo bears repeating. I've seen guys over the years say things like The Outfit was as strong as one of the 3 weaker NY families. This never made any sense to me whatsoever...

PolackTony wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 5:54 am

Snakes wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 5:23 am Rockford and Springfield had their own families.

Honestly, there isn't much else in Illinois as the state is pretty rural outside of Chicago and a few larger cities. I figure there was more than enough money to go around in the Chicago metro area and the neighboring counties and suburbs (remember, they also controlled Lake, McHenry, and DuPage Counties as well as Northwest Indiana, which is a pretty big swath of territory for one family).

To put things in perspective, Chicago had the entire metro area of the second largest city in the country, and a major global center of finance and business (as well as the largest concentration of Italian-Americans outside of the NYC-Philly megalopolis), to itself, wherein they exacted street taxes from a wide range of illicit and semi-legitimate businesses as well as ran their own numerous and highly lucrative rackets directly and controlled a vast network of connected businesses, Union locals, etc. If anything, Chicago probably, arguably, had the biggest ratio of territory/operations to organization of any family.

furiofromnaples wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 1:12 pm
I wrote "at it peak" So im reffering to the 1930s-1940s when the Outfit had more men than today.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 10:15 am

furiofromnaples wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:17 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 am Should go without saying, but the mafia isn’t an army that sends out battalions of soldiers to conquer territory. They’re not street gangs that fight to defend turf. Chicago had tons of connections, nationally and internationally, which afforded them specific opportunities to exploit advantages in areas outside of Chicago. They weren’t interested in “expanding” in the sense of setting up crews with territorial power to control street rackets in the West. This wasn’t a question of “manpower”. Besides, when they deemed it was necessary, they were plenty capable of using violence outside of Chicago (just ask Tamara Rand or Jay Vandermark) to support their interests.

PolackTony,Tamara Rand or Jay Vandermark murders was in the 1970s,an another era,now the Outfit wasnt strong,of course had connections but its a small thing respect the 1970s and 1980s.

You didn't specify a time period. Are you asking why Chicago hasn't muscled into other cities today? Why they didn't set up entire crews in other cities in the 30s, 40s, 50s? Not sure that I'm clear on where you're going with this.

furiofromnaples wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:17 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 am Should go without saying, but the mafia isn’t an army that sends out battalions of soldiers to conquer territory. They’re not street gangs that fight to defend turf. Chicago had tons of connections, nationally and internationally, which afforded them specific opportunities to exploit advantages in areas outside of Chicago. They weren’t interested in “expanding” in the sense of setting up crews with territorial power to control street rackets in the West. This wasn’t a question of “manpower”. Besides, when they deemed it was necessary, they were plenty capable of using violence outside of Chicago (just ask Tamara Rand or Jay Vandermark) to support their interests.

PolackTony,Tamara Rand or Jay Vandermark murders was in the 1970s,an another era,now the Outfit wasnt strong,of course had connections but its a small thing respect the 1970s and 1980s.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 am Should go without saying, but the mafia isn’t an army that sends out battalions of soldiers to conquer territory. They’re not street gangs that fight to defend turf. Chicago had tons of connections, nationally and internationally, which afforded them specific opportunities to exploit advantages in areas outside of Chicago. They weren’t interested in “expanding” in the sense of setting up crews with territorial power to control street rackets in the West. This wasn’t a question of “manpower”. Besides, when they deemed it was necessary, they were plenty capable of using violence outside of Chicago (just ask Tamara Rand or Jay Vandermark) to support their interests.