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Expand view Topic review: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by Don Mosseria » Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:40 am

Yeah - I did mention that somewhere in the thread above buried in amongst all the back and forth. He uses that term, and I think another similar one, a few times in the book. There are a lot of references to things relating to turning and circles in all these records in general. It’s interesting, because before we were analysing the term Torna in terms of “returning”, so it’s like everyone goes off their own lives, then there is “returning”, where everyone circles around and comes back to the clan. But in this case, Bill is using it in terms of the meeting itself being a circle of trusted friends, and they tie the circle. I think there might’ve been other variations on a circle theme here and there too - though maybe I am misremembering?

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by B. » Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:48 pm

Don't know how I missed this but in Bill Bonanno's last book he says his father opened the 1956 Commission meeting by saying "Attaccarmu tornu" and tying the circle.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by B. » Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:41 am

The Oblonica in 1800s Agrigento used the "turno" as a high court for mafia trials:

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Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by PolackTony » Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:45 pm

B. wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:27 pm Only comparable situation I'm aware of is where Bonanno underboss Frank Garofalo attended an SF induction ceremony as a sort of guest of honor because he was visiting CA where he owned a business. As far as I know it was a one-off
Yes, and the claim about Accardo was that it was an ongoing arrangement for him to attend the annual Milwaukee torneo. A guess on my part is that Milwaukee was in a sort of “receivership” situation, given that they had an internal leadership dispute in 1952 leading to Chicago appointing Alioto as boss to resolve the crisis, and then Alioto later appointing Balistrieri with Chicago’s approval, but apparently without an official vote from the Milwaukee membership. As Accardo was boss when Chicago had to step in and essentially take over Milwaukee’s leadership appointments, and was subsequently on Chicago’s Consiglio, he may have continued monitoring their affairs, as we also have intel from Maniaci that Balistrieri had to get Chicago’s approval for any major decisions.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by B. » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:27 pm

Only comparable situation I'm aware of is where Bonanno underboss Frank Garofalo attended an SF induction ceremony as a sort of guest of honor because he was visiting CA where he owned a business. As far as I know it was a one-off

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by PolackTony » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:18 pm

B. wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:23 pm With the torneo meetings in Milwaukee, one of the major complaints about Balistrieri by the old faction was that he no longer held them. Similar to complaints in the Bay Area -- although sources there never used that term that we're aware of, one of the reasons members wanted to depose Cerrito and Lanza was that they wouldn't hold Family meetings.

Interestingly, in 1970 Balistrieri was asked what his plan was before he was taken off the street for a pending jail sentence and he said he was going to hold a torneo. Not sure if it happened.
We discussed this recently, but don’t know that either of us posted about it. The FBI had a report in the 60s stating that Accardo attended Milwaukee’s “yearly meetings”. While not much more was said about this, possible that this went back to when Chicago put in Alioto as Milwaukee boss in 1952, while Accardo was still Chicago boss. We don’t know for a fact what Accardo’s formal position was in the early 60s (we have reason to believe that Ricca was segretario/chairman of the Consiglio; as they were later co-acting bosses together, it’s possible that they shared the chairman role prior to that), though it’s clear that as a former boss and member of the Consiglio, he had some level of admin responsibility. Haven’t seen any other account where a leader of an Avugad Family attended the Council meetings of a Family that they represented, though it would not at all surprise me if there turns out to be other examples.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by B. » Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:23 pm

With the torneo meetings in Milwaukee, one of the major complaints about Balistrieri by the old faction was that he no longer held them. Similar to complaints in the Bay Area -- although sources there never used that term that we're aware of, one of the reasons members wanted to depose Cerrito and Lanza was that they wouldn't hold Family meetings.

Interestingly, in 1970 Balistrieri was asked what his plan was before he was taken off the street for a pending jail sentence and he said he was going to hold a torneo. Not sure if it happened.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by LarryC » Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:56 am

Oh ok, I thought I was reading you guys were saying torno was like saying giuri, in which case I was saying torno is more of gira.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by B. » Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:51 am

Possible he could have used "gira" but "giurare" matches his use closely as well.

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Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by LarryC » Sun Jun 25, 2023 6:47 am

B. wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:25 pm Sounds like Bruno's use of "giuri" or giurare for a formal meeting where someone was to be promoted was akin to "swearing in" the new captain.
It's gira, which simply means to turn, or spin, or simply..change. If you're watching tv, someone says "gira", simply means to turn the channel, or rotate the channel.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by Don Mosseria » Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:49 am

PolackTony wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:35 pm
Don Mosseria wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:17 pm Oh, great. Thank you so much for answering all that Larry. Very interesting and informative on Sicilianu overall. And I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of the dropping the vowel thing for ages. But generally I’ve asked people who aren’t actually from Sicily but elsewhere in Italy, so they aren’t properly sure. So it’s really great to have you guys lay it out properly. Thanks again. Maybe it spread from Neapolitan to general Italian-American then, including as spoken by Sicilian-Americans? Cheers fellas!
Yep, that’s what happened. Particularly in communities like NYC/NJ, Chicago, New England, etc where there are many Italians from Campania, Puglia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, and Molise (all regions where most of the native local dialects are variants of Napuletan’). Other communities like Tampa, Detroit, Milwaukee, KC, maybe it was different, as there were comparatively fewer Mainland Southerners as compared to Sicilians in those cities.

BTW, Calabria is interesting as the northernmost section of Cosenza province traditionally speaks dialetti that are basically cousins of the Salernitan’ variety of Neapolitan, while in the very southern tip around Reggio the local language is basically Sicilian (very close to the dialect of Sicilianu spoken in Messina, for obvious reasons). The local dialetti in the area of Calabria in between these poles is essentially on a dialect continuum between Sicilianu and Napuletan’.
Tony - I think you said (unless it was Eric or Angelo) in one of your episodes that there was evidence that it took some incredibly short amount of time for immigrants arriving in America from different Italian regions to start speaking to each other in a form of standardised dialect formed in America. 5 years or something. I guess that would be the kind of thing we are discussing here. I would be very interested to see that if you are aware of an article on it anywhere. Thanks!

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by Don Mosseria » Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:46 am

Don Mosseria wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:37 am
It really is fascinating from a social history perspective that a word for a family gathering - tornu - which apparently would be used for any family,
Bloody hell, can one not delete a post with a mistake after you’ve submitted it? I meant torna in the sentence above, not tornu, the latter of which is Bill Bonanno’s term for the Commission session, not the term for a family gathering (and likely Maniaci’s term for an all family gathering), which is the former, and what I should have written…

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by Don Mosseria » Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:37 am

I have just been reading some of The Last Testimony of Bill Bonanno, and Bill reports that the formal part of a Commission meeting was referred to as the Tornu, which he translates as “circle” (again clearly the same route, cognate to the word “turn” in English). Again, another closely related term with many of the same connotations as all the other variants we have discussed. He gives some interesting information on the implied meaning, beyond simply the word for a geometric shape:

After entering the meeting room, the members sat in chairs arranged in a circle or around a circular table. The circle signified our tradition, which has no beginning and no end—and served as a reminder that each member had equal status. The chairman called the meeting to order by announcing in Sicilian, “Attaccarmu tornu” (“Let’s tie the circle”).

When the chairman declared “Attaccarmu tornu,” it was the signal for the Commission members, and anyone else invited into the circle, to stand and join hands, completing the circle. The chairman would then utter… “En nome del la fratelanza, il tornu attacadu” (“In the name of our fraternity, the circle is tied”). The members would then unclasp their hands and sit around the table.

At the end of the meeting, “the men would stand and join hands, repeating the words of adjournment, “Il tornu e sciolto” (“The circle is untied”). With that, the meeting was officially over.

Bill also gives some interesting information relating these “Tourna” terms to the other terms Tony and B were discussing above related to the English words Judge, Jury, Justice, Judgment, etc. - giuri, guirare etc., relating to swearing oaths and to judgment of sworn testimony etc. He states:

For the members, this tying of the circle had a stronger significance than the swearing of an oath in a courtroom. On occasion, a nonmember invitee could join the circle if summoned, if what he had to say would be relevant to the deliberations in the matters at hand. Such invitees would understand that their testimony was limited to reporting the facts, not interpreting them [note: they are sworn in like a courtroom witness]. The circle gave sanctity to what was said”.

This is all in Chapter 6: Protocol of a Commission Meeting. The PDF version of the book that I am reading does not give page numbers unfortunately.

It really is fascinating from a social history perspective that a word for a family gathering - tornu - which apparently would be used for any family, is so closely tied to all these related terms that have additional meaning related to oath sworn loyalty, which I would imagine indicates these connotations were implied by this word itself (especially as a mafia family apparently used it for its gathering). But it even shines light on the whole idea of referring to such an organisation as a family at all. In an environment of weak and corrupt state institutions, family, and extended family/clan, is itself the key institution. To survive and thrive requires strong family bonds of loyalty, mutual defence and mutual action.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by B. » Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:14 pm

That crossed my mind since the root sounds like jury. It makes sense -- Cosa Nostra was traditionally built around a legal framework.

Re: Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

by PolackTony » Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:04 pm

PolackTony wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:45 pm
B. wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:25 pm Sounds like Bruno's use of "giuri" or giurare for a formal meeting where someone was to be promoted was akin to "swearing in" the new captain.
I’d think so, and in Sicilianu the infinitive of the verb (“to swear”) would be pronounced as giurari, so the transcription may have rendered that as “giuri”.
Another potential translation could also have been the Italian giuria/giurì — a jury or a panel of judges.

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