2004 FBI figures

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Re: 2004 FBI figures

by LcnBios » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:15 pm

felice wrote:JD,

what about Michael Di Benedetto? was he already dead in 2002?

wasn't Montagna inducted in 2004?
If you're talking about the Michael DiBenedetto involved in the Mazzeo homicide he was an associate on record with Cantarella. He was never made, and aside from the Mazzeo hit was mostly involved in running a garbage business.

Vitale knew Montagna as a made guy so I'm assuming it was before 2002, by his (Vitale's) own admission he stopped attending ceremonies after 2001.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Lupara » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:29 am

Mukremin wrote:Outdated? Oke :D you have some articles for me to read? I need to catch up a lot it seems lol. But still question remains was he dumped hence the lack of respect at his funeral and no real retaliation.
There are lots of articles but I don't have them at hand. But Montagna's dealings are described in Mafia Inc.'s epilogue as well as in Business or Blood.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Mukremin » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:22 am

Outdated? Oke :D you have some articles for me to read? I need to catch up a lot it seems lol. But still question remains was he dumped hence the lack of respect at his funeral and no real retaliation.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Lupara » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:12 am

Mukremin wrote:
Lupara wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:Those figures you posted above have always been hard to believe. Maybe if you counted the 20 or so members in the Montreal Crew but could they really still be included in 2002/2003 after the supposed break following the 1999 murder of Sciascia?
Yes, because these guys were inducted into the Bonanno family. And if there ever was a break it wasn't official. Most of the members of the old crew sided with Montagna against the Rizzutos.

If Vitale estimated 150 members he most likely included Montreal. I think 100 members during Massino's reign is on the low end. Especially because they made up names of dead guys in order to make new members.
Most sided with Montagna? I thought it was the other way around, that Montagna wasn't liked by any of the factions there. That he tried to muscle his way in, and that he was worth shit up there. No retaliation after his killing and the poor show up at his funeral. This is the image i get after reading the latest book about the Rizzutos.
That's an outdated opinion. Before his falling out with Desjardins Montagna had a partnership with him. Di Maulo, Gallo and other high-ranking figures supported Montagna initially. He also met with members of the 'Ndrangheta in Ontario. A recent article also confirmed that De Vito aligned with Montagna. He formed a coalition that attempted the take-over.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Mukremin » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 am

Lupara wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:Those figures you posted above have always been hard to believe. Maybe if you counted the 20 or so members in the Montreal Crew but could they really still be included in 2002/2003 after the supposed break following the 1999 murder of Sciascia?
Yes, because these guys were inducted into the Bonanno family. And if there ever was a break it wasn't official. Most of the members of the old crew sided with Montagna against the Rizzutos.

If Vitale estimated 150 members he most likely included Montreal. I think 100 members during Massino's reign is on the low end. Especially because they made up names of dead guys in order to make new members.
Most sided with Montagna? I thought it was the other way around, that Montagna wasn't liked by any of the factions there. That he tried to muscle his way in, and that he was worth shit up there. No retaliation after his killing and the poor show up at his funeral. This is the image i get after reading the latest book about the Rizzutos.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Wiseguy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:44 pm

All things considered, I find the Bonannos getting as high as 135 members by the early 2000's, before the indictments and defections started coming, believable. But 150-160 or more seems like a stretch. I remember one article said the family had 200 members, which was ridiculous.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Lupara » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:02 pm

B. wrote:On one hand they honored the 20 member cap that had been in place, but on the other hand it sounds like they weren't notifying NY about new members which would be an issue.
During the Rizzuto era communication with New York went through Sciascia. So it seems like he wasn't doing a very good job keeping Massino informed. On the other hand it seems like Massino wasn't that interested in Montreal. It took him two years to send an envoy after the hit on Sciascia.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Lupara » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:55 pm

Chris Christie wrote:
JD wrote:
Lupara wrote:
JD wrote:Some not all because of Vitale's trip to Montreal, where he was told they had 19 made guys but had expected the number to be 9 (minus recently murdered Sciascia). So they were inducting guys and apparently not telling the admin. That stil leaves the nine or so confirmed to be formally authorized Bonanno members. Whatever their feelings towards the Bonanno leadership after Sciascia was killed, they were still Bonanno members.
Montreal seems to have been capped at 20. Their numbers were consistent from the 1960s to the 2000s. An FBI report of Montreal in the 1960s states that there are 20 members. Paoli Violi was overheard on a wiretap in the 1970s saying that they had 20 members. Vitale had limited knowledge on Montreal. Perhaps he expected it to be a tradional decina with 10 members.
That sounds about right, I was going off memory on the Montreal side.
Do we have a list or idea of who those members were and their origin (Sic vs Cal)

Great posts all around. I learned alot from this thread.
Most of the names I've provided you were made members in the 1970s. I've also composed a list of possible members in the 90s but that's mostly just guesswork.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by B. » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:24 pm

Also, I've wondered if Philly had a member cap. We know the DeCavalcantes had a cap at 75 (whether or not they ever filled out those numbers), but never heard about Philly. They had 80+ members at their peak and always had a steady recruitment pool, so maybe it was around 90 or 100 if they had one.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by B. » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:22 pm

With Montreal, I interpret Vitale's comment to mean there were 9 remaining members they were aware of, not that he expected them to be capped at ~10.

Massino/Vitale might have been unaware of how Montreal ceremonies were handled. On the Violi wiretaps, I remember getting the impression that Montreal simply needed approval from NY but other than that they handled the inductions themselves. Could be totally wrong on that assumption.

On one hand they honored the 20 member cap that had been in place, but on the other hand it sounds like they weren't notifying NY about new members which would be an issue.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by felice » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:27 am

JD,

what about Michael Di Benedetto? was he already dead in 2002?

wasn't Montagna inducted in 2004?

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Angelo Santino » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:12 am

JD wrote:
Lupara wrote:
JD wrote:Some not all because of Vitale's trip to Montreal, where he was told they had 19 made guys but had expected the number to be 9 (minus recently murdered Sciascia). So they were inducting guys and apparently not telling the admin. That stil leaves the nine or so confirmed to be formally authorized Bonanno members. Whatever their feelings towards the Bonanno leadership after Sciascia was killed, they were still Bonanno members.
Montreal seems to have been capped at 20. Their numbers were consistent from the 1960s to the 2000s. An FBI report of Montreal in the 1960s states that there are 20 members. Paoli Violi was overheard on a wiretap in the 1970s saying that they had 20 members. Vitale had limited knowledge on Montreal. Perhaps he expected it to be a tradional decina with 10 members.
That sounds about right, I was going off memory on the Montreal side.
Do we have a list or idea of who those members were and their origin (Sic vs Cal)

Great posts all around. I learned alot from this thread.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by LcnBios » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:56 am

Lupara wrote:
JD wrote:Some not all because of Vitale's trip to Montreal, where he was told they had 19 made guys but had expected the number to be 9 (minus recently murdered Sciascia). So they were inducting guys and apparently not telling the admin. That stil leaves the nine or so confirmed to be formally authorized Bonanno members. Whatever their feelings towards the Bonanno leadership after Sciascia was killed, they were still Bonanno members.
Montreal seems to have been capped at 20. Their numbers were consistent from the 1960s to the 2000s. An FBI report of Montreal in the 1960s states that there are 20 members. Paoli Violi was overheard on a wiretap in the 1970s saying that they had 20 members. Vitale had limited knowledge on Montreal. Perhaps he expected it to be a tradional decina with 10 members.
That sounds about right, I was going off memory on the Montreal side.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Lupara » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:49 am

JD wrote:Some not all because of Vitale's trip to Montreal, where he was told they had 19 made guys but had expected the number to be 9 (minus recently murdered Sciascia). So they were inducting guys and apparently not telling the admin. That stil leaves the nine or so confirmed to be formally authorized Bonanno members. Whatever their feelings towards the Bonanno leadership after Sciascia was killed, they were still Bonanno members.
Montreal seems to have been capped at 20. Their numbers were consistent from the 1960s to the 2000s. An FBI report of Montreal in the 1960s states that there are 20 members. Paoli Violi was overheard on a wiretap in the 1970s saying that they had 20 members. Vitale had limited knowledge on Montreal. Perhaps he expected it to be a tradional 'decina' with 10 members.

Re: 2004 FBI figures

by Pogo The Clown » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:36 am

Wiseguy wrote:Do you recall where those came from?

They, along wth those for the 5 families, came from the 25 Years After Valachi hearings.


Those Bonanno numbers look pretty accurate considering they are coming from Vitale, Lino and Coppa. All very high level informants. They are really not that hard to believe since Bonanno did grow exponentially under Massino. So much so that the feds even had them surpassing the Gambinos as the numbr 2 family in NY.


Edit: GREAT post JD. 8-)


Pogo

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