General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

Post a reply

Confirmation code
Enter the code exactly as it appears. All letters are case insensitive.

BBCode is OFF
Smilies are OFF

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Thu Nov 21, 2024 4:04 pm

PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:02 pm
Ivan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:43 am
PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:32 am Just to note. People online have been calling Pietro LaBalestra a "Sicilian zip" for some years now, but he isn't Sicilian. He's from Mola di Bari.
Another thing you see is people who were born in Sicily but moved here when they were like three with their parents and are basically fully American being called "Zips."

"Zip" to my mind always meant "Sicilian deliberately imported to the USA to facilitate organized crime activity" but that might be too narrow given how it's apparently used more broadly now (by others, not me).
Yeah, "zip" in its strict sense really should denote guys who already had some affiliation with Cosa Nostra in Sicily before arriving in the US. And even the assumption that all of these types were "sent" or "imported" in a deliberate, instrumental fashion is overstated, as there were many of them who surely arrived in the US for various personal reasons as part of the "second wave" of Italian immigration. They navigated this dynamic, in part, via their ties to Cosa Nostra, but it wasn't like they were all called in to some backroom in Palermo and told "Pino, you're going to NYC; Mimmu, you're going to Chicago; Enzu, you're part of a batch of 5 zips requested in Philly. You all ship out tomorrow... ", or whatever (there are, I'm certain, people who really think things worked like this).

There were Sicilians with ties to Sicilian Cosa Nostra in Chicago when the height of the "zip" stuff was going on in NYC/NJ, we just know much less about what they were up to. There were also a bunch of other Sicilians who arrived in Chicago/IL in this period, some of whom we can presume had familial and social connections to people in the mafia network, though they weren't "zips" in any meaningful way. There's a continuum here, as, again, all of these things were embedded in a broader demographic and social context that doesn't reduce in any simple way to mafia stuff alone.

Importantly, there were also a bunch of guys from mainland southern Italy with ties to the "mafias" in those regions in Chicago during the same period. These organizations also intersected to some extent with Chicago LCN and with each other (I think it's also very much worth noting that these intersections were happening during a period where the leadership strata of these organizations back in Italy were, as recounted by pentiti like Leonardo Messina and others, coming to think of themselves as all manifestations of the same "thing"). It's now been 50-60 years with these ties taking root and evolving locally, so they are by now deeply embedded in the local OC landscape. These "second wave" families, while retaining close ties back to Italy in the age of the internet and cheap travel, are at the same time thoroughly Americanized by now and many have intermarried with longstanding "first Wave" Ital-Americans, including families with deep connection to the Chicago LCN network.
I think most these mob guys were uneducated and not strict about much - I think zip was thrown around to everyone who was from Italy - even in the Sopranos they called Furio a zip. Fairly certain in the 80s and 90s all those Puglia guys were being referred to as zips.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:20 pm

PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:15 pm It's more than I can get into now, but we've discussed this a bit on the board previously in relation to statements given to the authorities by pentiti Leonardo Messina and Gioacchino Pennino (as B and I have discussed also, Pennino was himself the nephew of Chicago boss Totó LoVerde). It wasn't just Platonic (though there is at least some deeper background to this, in that -- despite their significant differences as organizations and subcultures -- all historically saw themselves as "Honored Societies"), but rather the organizational coordination of the other "mafias" in the 1970s/80s under the aegis of Cosa Nostra and with close collaboration with elements of the state and the P2 renegade Masonic lodge.
Cool shit and thanks for the leads. Don't worry about typing out a full answer if you're busy, I'll just look into it from the leads provided. 8-)

The P2 thing is actually referenced briefly in Godfather III, with Vincent Corleone talking about Lucchesi (the third film's Barzini/Roth-figure final-boss villain, this time an Italian politician) having ties to it.

This "Godfather Wiki" thing has a bit about all that in the "behind the scenes" section of its entry for Lucchesi:

https://godfather.fandom.com/wiki/Licio ... the_scenes

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by PolackTony » Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:15 pm

Ivan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:21 pm
PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:02 pm Importantly, there were also a bunch of guys from mainland southern Italy with ties to the "mafias" in those regions in Chicago during the same period. These organizations also intersected to some extent with Chicago LCN and with each other (I think it's also very much worth noting that these intersections were happening during a period where the leadership strata of these organizations back in Italy were, as recounted by pentiti like Leonardo Messina and others, coming to think of themselves as all manifestations of the same "thing").
OK now this is interesting. Like the Comorra, Sicilian Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, American Cosa Nostra, etc. all started thinking themselves as manifestations of some kind of Platonic ideal or whatever of "southern Italian secret criminal society", am I interpreting what you're saying correctly?
It's more than I can get into now, but we've discussed this a bit on the board previously in relation to statements given to the authorities by pentiti Leonardo Messina and Gioacchino Pennino (as B and I have discussed also, Pennino was himself the nephew of Chicago boss Totó LoVerde). It wasn't just Platonic (though there is at least some deeper background to this, in that -- despite their significant differences as organizations and subcultures -- all historically saw themselves as "Honored Societies"), but rather the organizational coordination of the other "mafias" in the 1970s/80s under the aegis of Cosa Nostra and with close collaboration with elements of the state and the P2 renegade Masonic lodge.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:08 pm

Coloboy wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:03 pm
Ivan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:21 pm
PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:02 pm Importantly, there were also a bunch of guys from mainland southern Italy with ties to the "mafias" in those regions in Chicago during the same period. These organizations also intersected to some extent with Chicago LCN and with each other (I think it's also very much worth noting that these intersections were happening during a period where the leadership strata of these organizations back in Italy were, as recounted by pentiti like Leonardo Messina and others, coming to think of themselves as all manifestations of the same "thing").
OK now this is interesting. Like the Comorra, Sicilian Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, American Cosa Nostra, etc. all started thinking themselves as manifestations of some kind of Platonic ideal or whatever of "southern Italian secret criminal society", am I interpreting what you're saying correctly?
Kind of reminds me of what happened with Luciano and the group in the early 30's with the formation of the commission. No more disparate sects. We are all "italian".
It's interesting because "Italian" is more or less an artificial imposition of 19th century nationalists, but those kind of hard political impositions can in turn cause very real, "organic" things to change their folkways etc. to be consistent with the imposition and thereby reify it.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Coloboy » Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:03 pm

Ivan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:21 pm
PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:02 pm Importantly, there were also a bunch of guys from mainland southern Italy with ties to the "mafias" in those regions in Chicago during the same period. These organizations also intersected to some extent with Chicago LCN and with each other (I think it's also very much worth noting that these intersections were happening during a period where the leadership strata of these organizations back in Italy were, as recounted by pentiti like Leonardo Messina and others, coming to think of themselves as all manifestations of the same "thing").
OK now this is interesting. Like the Comorra, Sicilian Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, American Cosa Nostra, etc. all started thinking themselves as manifestations of some kind of Platonic ideal or whatever of "southern Italian secret criminal society", am I interpreting what you're saying correctly?
Kind of reminds me of what happened with Luciano and the group in the early 30's with the formation of the commission. No more disparate sects. We are all "italian".

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:21 pm

PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:02 pm Importantly, there were also a bunch of guys from mainland southern Italy with ties to the "mafias" in those regions in Chicago during the same period. These organizations also intersected to some extent with Chicago LCN and with each other (I think it's also very much worth noting that these intersections were happening during a period where the leadership strata of these organizations back in Italy were, as recounted by pentiti like Leonardo Messina and others, coming to think of themselves as all manifestations of the same "thing").
OK now this is interesting. Like the Comorra, Sicilian Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, American Cosa Nostra, etc. all started thinking themselves as manifestations of some kind of Platonic ideal or whatever of "southern Italian secret criminal society", am I interpreting what you're saying correctly?

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by PolackTony » Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:02 pm

Ivan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:43 am
PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:32 am Just to note. People online have been calling Pietro LaBalestra a "Sicilian zip" for some years now, but he isn't Sicilian. He's from Mola di Bari.
Another thing you see is people who were born in Sicily but moved here when they were like three with their parents and are basically fully American being called "Zips."

"Zip" to my mind always meant "Sicilian deliberately imported to the USA to facilitate organized crime activity" but that might be too narrow given how it's apparently used more broadly now (by others, not me).
Yeah, "zip" in its strict sense really should denote guys who already had some affiliation with Cosa Nostra in Sicily before arriving in the US. And even the assumption that all of these types were "sent" or "imported" in a deliberate, instrumental fashion is overstated, as there were many of them who surely arrived in the US for various personal reasons as part of the "second wave" of Italian immigration. They navigated this dynamic, in part, via their ties to Cosa Nostra, but it wasn't like they were all called in to some backroom in Palermo and told "Pino, you're going to NYC; Mimmu, you're going to Chicago; Enzu, you're part of a batch of 5 zips requested in Philly. You all ship out tomorrow... ", or whatever (there are, I'm certain, people who really think things worked like this).

There were Sicilians with ties to Sicilian Cosa Nostra in Chicago when the height of the "zip" stuff was going on in NYC/NJ, we just know much less about what they were up to. There were also a bunch of other Sicilians who arrived in Chicago/IL in this period, some of whom we can presume had familial and social connections to people in the mafia network, though they weren't "zips" in any meaningful way. There's a continuum here, as, again, all of these things were embedded in a broader demographic and social context that doesn't reduce in any simple way to mafia stuff alone.

Importantly, there were also a bunch of guys from mainland southern Italy with ties to the "mafias" in those regions in Chicago during the same period. These organizations also intersected to some extent with Chicago LCN and with each other (I think it's also very much worth noting that these intersections were happening during a period where the leadership strata of these organizations back in Italy were, as recounted by pentiti like Leonardo Messina and others, coming to think of themselves as all manifestations of the same "thing"). It's now been 50-60 years with these ties taking root and evolving locally, so they are by now deeply embedded in the local OC landscape. These "second wave" families, while retaining close ties back to Italy in the age of the internet and cheap travel, are at the same time thoroughly Americanized by now and many have intermarried with longstanding "first Wave" Ital-Americans, including families with deep connection to the Chicago LCN network.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:43 am

PolackTony wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:32 am Just to note. People online have been calling Pietro LaBalestra a "Sicilian zip" for some years now, but he isn't Sicilian. He's from Mola di Bari.
Another thing you see is people who were born in Sicily but moved here when they were like three with their parents and are basically fully American being called "Zips."

"Zip" to my mind always meant "Sicilian deliberately imported to the USA to facilitate organized crime activity" but that might be too narrow given how it's apparently used more broadly now (by others, not me).

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by PolackTony » Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:32 am

NorthBuffalo wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 9:12 am I think if Burnstein did half the research some of the guys on this board do, his scoops would be something. Why not write a deeper article on Caliendo of the Cicero crew being outed in witness protection in Kansas or this indictment of the son of a well-known sicilian mobster trading guns to a Colombian cartel. Look at guys like Rick Simon who are still in places of power in Chicago who had major mob connections for decades.

But hey...there's a photo of Gigi Rovito on Facebook again.
Just to note. People online have been calling Pietro LaBalestra a "Sicilian zip" for some years now, but he isn't Sicilian. He's from Mola di Bari.

Bari, of course, has its own "mafia" (derived from 'ndrangheta and camorra influences) with longstanding ties to Chicago LCN.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Wed Nov 20, 2024 9:12 am

I think if Burnstein did half the research some of the guys on this board do, his scoops would be something. Why not write a deeper article on Caliendo of the Cicero crew being outed in witness protection in Kansas or this indictment of the son of a well-known sicilian mobster trading guns to a Colombian cartel. Look at guys like Rick Simon who are still in places of power in Chicago who had major mob connections for decades.

But hey...there's a photo of Gigi Rovito on Facebook again.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Wed Nov 20, 2024 7:36 am

Cheech wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:46 am So this guy Gigi is a made outfit member?
No one really knows. Burnstein's sources are telling him he is made, and he is heavily rumored to be such on the internet, but it's never been confirmed by like the FBI or someone important flipping or whatever.

The main opinions you hear on the matter are that he was made in the late 2000s as part of a batch of gangbanger types who got straightened out by Mike Sarno, or he got made recently under Solly D, or he isn't made at all and all of this is bullshit. Take your pick! :lol:

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Cheech » Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:46 am

So this guy Gigi is a made outfit member?

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by PolackTony » Tue Nov 19, 2024 11:08 pm

NorthBuffalo wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:15 pm
PolackTony wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 4:03 pm Thanks for the reminder on Rosemarie Lombardi. The 2021 Sun-Times article referenced above noted that her and her brother were listed as residing at their father's former residence in Bridgeview during the investigation into the tax breaks. When she ran for Addison mayor in 1997, it was noted that she worked for a major Loop law firm. Not sure which one, but good chance that she may have been the one with the pull to get favors from the Assessor's office.

Quite the character. As referenced in the Reader article above, she unsuccessfully attempted to sue the Addison PD for excessive force after they arrested her at her home on an outstanding warrant for failure to appear in court in 2000:
https://casetext.com/case/lombardi-v-range

Regarding Joe Lombardi being "deactivated". Recall also that when he was pinched for the 1993 juice loan case, this was an Infelise crew operation he was working with -- he was busted alongside Sarno, Cataudella, and Mike Castaldo. Whether he was chased by EP or just transferred, it would seem that by this time he was affiliated with Taylor St/Cicero, which of course makes sense given where he was from.
Castaldo was also EP - he became partners with Lombardi following the latter's blow up with Messino, who was Lombardi's original partner in the juice business. Per Fosco, Lombardi and Messino were 'separated' and Lombardi put with Mike Castaldo, who was a major earner under Cerone/DiFronzo. I think this was a 'joint operation' as opposed to just Cicero.

The way the juice business was explained to me was that in the 1990s all of the various crews like EP and Cicero would use each other's enforcers to collect and that changed completely after the 1990s indictments. These were separate juice operations involving guys like Cataudella and Sarno who were being farmed out as enforcers and collectors to other crews. I think if you read those indictments, Castaldo was largely the one in charge.
Yeah, you’re right that Fosco always placed Castaldo with EP. Like Messino and Lombardi, he was also from Taylor St and also Accerese. It would seem that Messino had formed his own little “crew” of paesani from Taylor St within the EP crew. I also agree that Castaldo was the big fish in the 1993 case. While I don’t know that it was ever confirmed by the FBI, I strongly suspect that Mike Castaldo was made by this point, and would then presumably have been the only made guy pinched in that case. Interesting that this was also the period when we know Sarno was meeting with Andriacchi.

Mike Castaldo had an early pinch, along with another guy from Taylor St, John Muscato, in the 1950s for assaulting wealthy River Forest businessman Frank Munao while collecting on a $20k juice loan, allegedly for Joe Amabile. By the early 1960s, FBI intel had him as “partnered” with Messino in the operation of Tammy’s, a tavern located at Belmont and Austin on the NW side. I would imagine that at some time before then, Messino had put him on record with the Cerone crew.

Tangential to this discussion, but the mother of Tancredi Tortora was also a Castaldo, so there’s a good chance that Mike Castaldo was related to Tortora. As a reminder, Tortora was a Taylor St gangster (likely affiliated with the old Camorra) in the 1920s from Acerra who was the buddy of Johnny Roselli and who, according to the story that Roselli allegedly told Sal Piscopo of the LA outfit, had collaborated with Roselli in the murder of Anibale Stilo in Boston in 1927. Tortora and Roselli then fled Boston for Chicago and subsequently were given safe harbor in LA. Tortora later turned himself in to authorities, allegedly, per Piscopo, on the orders of Vito Genovese (who was also a paesan’ from the same district of Caserta) and was afterwards deported back to Acerra, where the FBI in the 1960s unsuccessfully tried to interview him as to the true identity of Roselli. There is a long history to these Taylor St guys.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:53 pm

Nothing really new here except for the book being plugged, but here's a fun news report on Geri Rosenthal. I will never get tired of this story. It's not just a great mob story, it's a great American story in general.

https://www.8newsnow.com/investigators/ ... -new-book/

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Tue Nov 19, 2024 7:15 pm

PolackTony wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 4:03 pm Thanks for the reminder on Rosemarie Lombardi. The 2021 Sun-Times article referenced above noted that her and her brother were listed as residing at their father's former residence in Bridgeview during the investigation into the tax breaks. When she ran for Addison mayor in 1997, it was noted that she worked for a major Loop law firm. Not sure which one, but good chance that she may have been the one with the pull to get favors from the Assessor's office.

Quite the character. As referenced in the Reader article above, she unsuccessfully attempted to sue the Addison PD for excessive force after they arrested her at her home on an outstanding warrant for failure to appear in court in 2000:
https://casetext.com/case/lombardi-v-range

Regarding Joe Lombardi being "deactivated". Recall also that when he was pinched for the 1993 juice loan case, this was an Infelise crew operation he was working with -- he was busted alongside Sarno, Cataudella, and Mike Castaldo. Whether he was chased by EP or just transferred, it would seem that by this time he was affiliated with Taylor St/Cicero, which of course makes sense given where he was from.
Castaldo was also EP - he became partners with Lombardi following the latter's blow up with Messino, who was Lombardi's original partner in the juice business. Per Fosco, Lombardi and Messino were 'separated' and Lombardi put with Mike Castaldo, who was a major earner under Cerone/DiFronzo. I think this was a 'joint operation' as opposed to just Cicero.

The way the juice business was explained to me was that in the 1990s all of the various crews like EP and Cicero would use each other's enforcers to collect and that changed completely after the 1990s indictments. These were separate juice operations involving guys like Cataudella and Sarno who were being farmed out as enforcers and collectors to other crews. I think if you read those indictments, Castaldo was largely the one in charge.

Top