THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Chopper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:42 am

Etna wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:08 am

Chopper wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:26 am

Ryan98366 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:11 pm Anyone interested in the Camorra should watch the TV show “Gomorrah” on Amazon or HBO Max. Read the subtitles. It’s fucking amazing. As good as The Sopranos in my opinion. There was never a discussion of a making ceremony or membership in the show amongst the clans.

There is discussion of territory, hierarchy and rank, however. And in season 5, they swear a blood oath, with the literal blood of a deceased ‘member’, lol.

And season 3 starts with a meeting of bosses, discussing the dead of Savastano Sr.

So the swearing of a blood oath sounds like it may be a pact more than anything.

The bosses discussing the dead Savastano Sr. is an alliance of different Camorra clans, that's all.

Nope. Go watch it when it’s available in the States in 4 years

Etna wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:08 am

Chopper wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:26 am

Ryan98366 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:11 pm Anyone interested in the Camorra should watch the TV show “Gomorrah” on Amazon or HBO Max. Read the subtitles. It’s fucking amazing. As good as The Sopranos in my opinion. There was never a discussion of a making ceremony or membership in the show amongst the clans.

There is discussion of territory, hierarchy and rank, however. And in season 5, they swear a blood oath, with the literal blood of a deceased ‘member’, lol.

And season 3 starts with a meeting of bosses, discussing the dead of Savastano Sr.

So the swearing of a blood oath sounds like it may be a pact more than anything.

The bosses discussing the dead Savastano Sr. is an alliance of different Camorra clans, that's all.

Chopper wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:26 am

Ryan98366 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:11 pm Anyone interested in the Camorra should watch the TV show “Gomorrah” on Amazon or HBO Max. Read the subtitles. It’s fucking amazing. As good as The Sopranos in my opinion. There was never a discussion of a making ceremony or membership in the show amongst the clans.

There is discussion of territory, hierarchy and rank, however. And in season 5, they swear a blood oath, with the literal blood of a deceased ‘member’, lol.

And season 3 starts with a meeting of bosses, discussing the dead of Savastano Sr.

Ryan98366 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:11 pm Anyone interested in the Camorra should watch the TV show “Gomorrah” on Amazon or HBO Max. Read the subtitles. It’s fucking amazing. As good as The Sopranos in my opinion. There was never a discussion of a making ceremony or membership in the show amongst the clans.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:00 am

ThutmosisChen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:17 am

Trident wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:40 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 am

Shellackhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:21 pm

Trident wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:50 pm

ChicagoOutfit wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:27 pm Very interesting thread.

If anyone had not yet read Gomorra I strongly urge you to. If you’ve somehow not seen the movie or the series yet, both are must see. S1 & S2 are as good as any season of The Sopranos or The Wire imho.

S3 outlines how a gang of low level criminals becomes more organized, better equipped, earns more, becomes more and more influential and becomes a clan within “the system.”

They start to be recognized as a clan or “members” of The Camorra the more influence they gain, and the more they interact with others within “the system”. There’s no formal “now you’re in The Camorra” moment or rite of passage. It develops as you gain more influence, earn more, control more and have more access to powerful leaders within “the system.”

The question of when are you defined as a member is somewhat similar to a question of “when are you a successful businessman?” There’s no definitive “now you’ve made it moment” it comes from growing your business and your reach with other people within the business community.

Someone with a small business making $500k/year in revenue may consider himself a “successful businessman” but compared to a person with a larger business generating $50M in revenue, that businessman wouldn’t think much of the first guy.

Similarly, some baby gang of 20 teenagers “controlling” a strip to sell dope and commit lower level crimes may consider themselves Camorristi yet compared to those in power controlling large swaths of territory they might not think anything of these teenagers or may just use them to push their products and once they kids grow and show more capabilities they’d be “recognized” more and more.

TLDR: there’s no definitive “now you’re in the Camorra” moment, particularly in the city.

Would it then be possible to be considered a Camorristi if you aren’t even Italian if it’s so informal?

I think they use immigrants as drug traffickers

My understanding is that they are partnered with the Nigerians (Castelvolturno) but I don’t believe any Nigerians are considered “members” of any of the clans (they of course have their own organizations, like Black Axe, an Igbo/Yoruba criminal “fraternity”), but rather pay street tax to the clans. I do recall some years back reading somewhere that some relatives of Camorristi had married some Nigerians. Don’t know if that’s factual, but if so it might be significant, as in the absence of formalized membership marriage/family links are a way to establish a “circle of trust” around the leadership strata.

I guess let’s say if someone was Italian on their mother’s side and had developed strong connections to legit Camorristi would people recognize that person as a Camorristi? Basically someone who would widely be considered a member if he was full Italian.

I don`t think ethnicity really matters in Camorra. A black guy or other immigrants can be a close associate of the Camorra as long as he get involved with the right person, it should be no different from other mafia who use people of various backgrounds as associates, I remember reading a case in Germany where half of the busted Ndrangheta drug chain are non-Italians. If the Calabrians don`t mind using other ethnicities, the Camorra certainly won`t either.
https://www.dw.com/en/italian-mafia-see ... a-55285412

Five are suspected members of the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta syndicate and all 14 reside in Germany's most populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW). Their passports reveal NRW's 'Ndrangheta as an international employer: Italian, German, Dutch, Turkish, Moroccan, Portuguese.

A Nigerian will most likely belong to one of the Nigerian associations.


Remember, these guys more so arrange marriages than induct people. It's part of the reason the membership is the way it is. The family is the highest rank. It's why I compare it to a corporate- family owned business model. You can have criminal equivalents of CEOs. Franchises, managers, workers. But the "Shareholders" are the family.

You can understand why the Sicilians initially were reluctant to Induct multiple family members in the same borgata. Calderone talked about it. The clan becomes beholden to itself.

ThutmosisChen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:24 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:00 am
Remember, these guys more so arrange marriages than induct people. It's part of the reason the membership is the way it is. The family is the highest rank. It's why I compare it to a corporate- family owned business model. You can have criminal equivalents of CEOs. Franchises, managers, workers. But the "Shareholders" are the family.

So basically a criminal version of Medieval feudalism? Families are essentially the ones that inspire loyalty and alliances, while many families can serve in the same court and under the same king. I always wonder how a Ndrina is organized. Sure the ruling families like Piromalli, De Stefano, Mancuso, etc are on top, but how are divisions/crews within the Ndrine maintained? Each family has its own crew maybe?

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:00 am
Remember, these guys more so arrange marriages than induct people. It's part of the reason the membership is the way it is. The family is the highest rank. It's why I compare it to a corporate- family owned business model. You can have criminal equivalents of CEOs. Franchises, managers, workers. But the "Shareholders" are the family.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:00 am

ThutmosisChen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:17 am

Trident wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:40 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 am

Shellackhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:21 pm

Trident wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:50 pm

ChicagoOutfit wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:27 pm Very interesting thread.

If anyone had not yet read Gomorra I strongly urge you to. If you’ve somehow not seen the movie or the series yet, both are must see. S1 & S2 are as good as any season of The Sopranos or The Wire imho.

S3 outlines how a gang of low level criminals becomes more organized, better equipped, earns more, becomes more and more influential and becomes a clan within “the system.”

They start to be recognized as a clan or “members” of The Camorra the more influence they gain, and the more they interact with others within “the system”. There’s no formal “now you’re in The Camorra” moment or rite of passage. It develops as you gain more influence, earn more, control more and have more access to powerful leaders within “the system.”

The question of when are you defined as a member is somewhat similar to a question of “when are you a successful businessman?” There’s no definitive “now you’ve made it moment” it comes from growing your business and your reach with other people within the business community.

Someone with a small business making $500k/year in revenue may consider himself a “successful businessman” but compared to a person with a larger business generating $50M in revenue, that businessman wouldn’t think much of the first guy.

Similarly, some baby gang of 20 teenagers “controlling” a strip to sell dope and commit lower level crimes may consider themselves Camorristi yet compared to those in power controlling large swaths of territory they might not think anything of these teenagers or may just use them to push their products and once they kids grow and show more capabilities they’d be “recognized” more and more.

TLDR: there’s no definitive “now you’re in the Camorra” moment, particularly in the city.

Would it then be possible to be considered a Camorristi if you aren’t even Italian if it’s so informal?

I think they use immigrants as drug traffickers

My understanding is that they are partnered with the Nigerians (Castelvolturno) but I don’t believe any Nigerians are considered “members” of any of the clans (they of course have their own organizations, like Black Axe, an Igbo/Yoruba criminal “fraternity”), but rather pay street tax to the clans. I do recall some years back reading somewhere that some relatives of Camorristi had married some Nigerians. Don’t know if that’s factual, but if so it might be significant, as in the absence of formalized membership marriage/family links are a way to establish a “circle of trust” around the leadership strata.

I guess let’s say if someone was Italian on their mother’s side and had developed strong connections to legit Camorristi would people recognize that person as a Camorristi? Basically someone who would widely be considered a member if he was full Italian.

I don`t think ethnicity really matters in Camorra. A black guy or other immigrants can be a close associate of the Camorra as long as he get involved with the right person, it should be no different from other mafia who use people of various backgrounds as associates, I remember reading a case in Germany where half of the busted Ndrangheta drug chain are non-Italians. If the Calabrians don`t mind using other ethnicities, the Camorra certainly won`t either.
https://www.dw.com/en/italian-mafia-see ... a-55285412

Five are suspected members of the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta syndicate and all 14 reside in Germany's most populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW). Their passports reveal NRW's 'Ndrangheta as an international employer: Italian, German, Dutch, Turkish, Moroccan, Portuguese.

A Nigerian will most likely belong to one of the Nigerian associations.


Remember, these guys more so arrange marriages than induct people. It's part of the reason the membership is the way it is. The family is the highest rank. It's why I compare it to a corporate- family owned business model. You can have criminal equivalents of CEOs. Franchises, managers, workers. But the "Shareholders" are the family.

You can understand why the Sicilians initially were reluctant to Induct multiple family members in the same borgata. Calderone talked about it. The clan becomes beholden to itself.

ThutmosisChen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:17 am

Trident wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:40 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 am

Shellackhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:21 pm

Trident wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:50 pm

ChicagoOutfit wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:27 pm Very interesting thread.

If anyone had not yet read Gomorra I strongly urge you to. If you’ve somehow not seen the movie or the series yet, both are must see. S1 & S2 are as good as any season of The Sopranos or The Wire imho.

S3 outlines how a gang of low level criminals becomes more organized, better equipped, earns more, becomes more and more influential and becomes a clan within “the system.”

They start to be recognized as a clan or “members” of The Camorra the more influence they gain, and the more they interact with others within “the system”. There’s no formal “now you’re in The Camorra” moment or rite of passage. It develops as you gain more influence, earn more, control more and have more access to powerful leaders within “the system.”

The question of when are you defined as a member is somewhat similar to a question of “when are you a successful businessman?” There’s no definitive “now you’ve made it moment” it comes from growing your business and your reach with other people within the business community.

Someone with a small business making $500k/year in revenue may consider himself a “successful businessman” but compared to a person with a larger business generating $50M in revenue, that businessman wouldn’t think much of the first guy.

Similarly, some baby gang of 20 teenagers “controlling” a strip to sell dope and commit lower level crimes may consider themselves Camorristi yet compared to those in power controlling large swaths of territory they might not think anything of these teenagers or may just use them to push their products and once they kids grow and show more capabilities they’d be “recognized” more and more.

TLDR: there’s no definitive “now you’re in the Camorra” moment, particularly in the city.

Would it then be possible to be considered a Camorristi if you aren’t even Italian if it’s so informal?

I think they use immigrants as drug traffickers

My understanding is that they are partnered with the Nigerians (Castelvolturno) but I don’t believe any Nigerians are considered “members” of any of the clans (they of course have their own organizations, like Black Axe, an Igbo/Yoruba criminal “fraternity”), but rather pay street tax to the clans. I do recall some years back reading somewhere that some relatives of Camorristi had married some Nigerians. Don’t know if that’s factual, but if so it might be significant, as in the absence of formalized membership marriage/family links are a way to establish a “circle of trust” around the leadership strata.

I guess let’s say if someone was Italian on their mother’s side and had developed strong connections to legit Camorristi would people recognize that person as a Camorristi? Basically someone who would widely be considered a member if he was full Italian.

I don`t think ethnicity really matters in Camorra. A black guy or other immigrants can be a close associate of the Camorra as long as he get involved with the right person, it should be no different from other mafia who use people of various backgrounds as associates, I remember reading a case in Germany where half of the busted Ndrangheta drug chain are non-Italians. If the Calabrians don`t mind using other ethnicities, the Camorra certainly won`t either.
https://www.dw.com/en/italian-mafia-see ... a-55285412

Five are suspected members of the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta syndicate and all 14 reside in Germany's most populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW). Their passports reveal NRW's 'Ndrangheta as an international employer: Italian, German, Dutch, Turkish, Moroccan, Portuguese.

Trident wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:40 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 am

Shellackhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:21 pm

Trident wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:50 pm

ChicagoOutfit wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:27 pm Very interesting thread.

If anyone had not yet read Gomorra I strongly urge you to. If you’ve somehow not seen the movie or the series yet, both are must see. S1 & S2 are as good as any season of The Sopranos or The Wire imho.

S3 outlines how a gang of low level criminals becomes more organized, better equipped, earns more, becomes more and more influential and becomes a clan within “the system.”

They start to be recognized as a clan or “members” of The Camorra the more influence they gain, and the more they interact with others within “the system”. There’s no formal “now you’re in The Camorra” moment or rite of passage. It develops as you gain more influence, earn more, control more and have more access to powerful leaders within “the system.”

The question of when are you defined as a member is somewhat similar to a question of “when are you a successful businessman?” There’s no definitive “now you’ve made it moment” it comes from growing your business and your reach with other people within the business community.

Someone with a small business making $500k/year in revenue may consider himself a “successful businessman” but compared to a person with a larger business generating $50M in revenue, that businessman wouldn’t think much of the first guy.

Similarly, some baby gang of 20 teenagers “controlling” a strip to sell dope and commit lower level crimes may consider themselves Camorristi yet compared to those in power controlling large swaths of territory they might not think anything of these teenagers or may just use them to push their products and once they kids grow and show more capabilities they’d be “recognized” more and more.

TLDR: there’s no definitive “now you’re in the Camorra” moment, particularly in the city.

Would it then be possible to be considered a Camorristi if you aren’t even Italian if it’s so informal?

I think they use immigrants as drug traffickers

My understanding is that they are partnered with the Nigerians (Castelvolturno) but I don’t believe any Nigerians are considered “members” of any of the clans (they of course have their own organizations, like Black Axe, an Igbo/Yoruba criminal “fraternity”), but rather pay street tax to the clans. I do recall some years back reading somewhere that some relatives of Camorristi had married some Nigerians. Don’t know if that’s factual, but if so it might be significant, as in the absence of formalized membership marriage/family links are a way to establish a “circle of trust” around the leadership strata.

I guess let’s say if someone was Italian on their mother’s side and had developed strong connections to legit Camorristi would people recognize that person as a Camorristi? Basically someone who would widely be considered a member if he was full Italian.

Five are suspected members of the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta syndicate and all 14 reside in Germany's most populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW). Their passports reveal NRW's 'Ndrangheta as an international employer: Italian, German, Dutch, Turkish, Moroccan, Portuguese.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:33 am

ThutmosisChen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:41 pm Everyone receives a salary instead of kicking up? That sounds even more organized than the other mafias. If you only kick up a percentage the bosses are only going to get their share of the profit but if the bosses collect all the cash and pay everyone else a salary they would have much tighter control on their people, like a real company with centralized finance. I can`t imagine these "loosely-affiliated" clans running like that. Are you sure it`s not only the low-level errand boys who get a salary and real Camorristi kick up to the boss? I think in many cases Saviano`s book was talking about these nearly-ordinary people who were employed by the Camorra in illegal industries instead of the actual ring leaders.

More and more.... all these clans look the same. They all do the same shit. I get it... they have political connections, but sometimes yall underrate how important the street is to the mafia. Sorry Chris, lol...



https://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artic ... d6f95.html




Operation "Brevis 2" of the Carabinieri Mafia, 8 arrests in Palermo for drug trafficking control In prison, the leaders of the Pagliarelli district who supplied drug dealing squares with drugs and also allegedly paid the expenses for the maintenance of the families of the "associates" in prison -


December 14, 2021The way to make money is always drugs.

And drug trafficking was "differentiated". The hashish arrived from Malaga, Spain, directly to Palermo via Campania couriers. The cocaine, on the other hand, came from Calabria. Managing this incessant flow is the Pagliarelli mafia district in Palermo. To describe the mafia system the "Brevis 2" investigation, conducted by the investigative unit of the provincial command of the Carabinieri who carried out 8 precautionary custody measures in prison and 1 preventive seizure issued by the Gip of Palermo at the request of the DDA of the Sicilian capital.


Crimes and arrests


The offenses are criminal association for drug trafficking, possession and dealing, extortion and fraudulent transfer of assets and values, all aggravated by the mafia method. The regent of the Pagliarelli district, his right arm, two lieutenants and 4 couriers, the most active in drug trafficking, ended up in prison.


The "Brevis" investigation and the Scarface villas


The investigation is the follow-up to the "Brevis" investigation of last April, again on the Pagliarelli mafia district which allowed "to find the continuing operation of that joint 'Cosa Nostra' in Palermo". Last April the Carabinieri had identified and arrested the alleged new top of the district, already arrested in December 2018 in the "Cupola 2.0" operation. Even in this case, what emerges is the strict control of the Cosa Nostra over the territory, so much so that the "regent" can obtain from a private individual a luxurious villa with a Scarface-style swimming pool, where he lived with his family. Villa, however, which remained in the name of the rightful owner. The property is now under seizure.

Drugs, money and welfare


But it's the seamless drug flow that gets the money to the district. A flow on which the regent of the Pagliarelli district could count on a criminal network that he supplied according to the requests of the squares. Hashish from Spain with Campania couriers and cocaine from Calabrian top men.


The mafia strategy



The "Brevis II" operation has an important strategic value, since it would make it possible to outline how the Cosa Nostra actually guarantees the constant flow of drugs in the Sicilian capital.

It is only thanks to a massive criminal import that the drug would then flow to the various drug dealing squares in Palermo, in relation to which the Carabinieri carried out 112 arrests in just 35 days. "It is believed - according to a note from the provincial command of the carabinieri of Palermo -, based on the serious indications collected so far, that the retail sale of drugs is considered by 'Cosa Nostra' also a real social safety net by ' grant to the social groups of the most critical city areas, while maintaining "iron control of the most lucrative supply of drugs on the island". With the proceeds of the drug - according to the investigations - the head of the district's fund, identified by the regent, would also have met the expenses for the maintenance of the families of the detained "associates".

http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artico ... d6f95.html














]http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artico ... d6f95.html