THE BLACK HAND FORUM

stubbs wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:28 am

B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:01 pm Not trying to Monday Morning QB my favorite show of all time, but a compelling end to the Sopranos would have been a massive RICO indictment against the Family, Christopher flipping during S6 after realizing Cosa Nostra took the love of his life away from him, and a tense courtroom drama during the last few episodes where Christopher testifies against Tony about all of the major murders and crimes we saw throughout the series.

The show would have ended with Tony facing life in prison, considering his loyalty to his family vs. Family, and right when Tony is deciding whether or not to flip -- cut to black. We never know. Chase could have still kept his sudden ending with unanswered questions.

Instead we got a clown storyline with Tony murdering Christopher by plugging his nose after a car accident, a visit to some random mistress of Christopher's in Las Vegas, and a peyote trip in the desert.

We're left with a neanderthal-level debate of "DID TONY DIE?!?! HERE'S WHY HE DID/DIDN'T DIE". It's just a pure guessing game that has nothing to do with Tony's inner psychology (the whole point of the show). If we had been left with the question of whether Tony flips we'd still be having interesting discussions over Tony's choice.

It would have paralleled the Massino situation just a short time earlier, too.

This as an ending never crossed my mind ever, massive credit to you for creating what I think is a way more creative and emotional ending that really would have drawn in the viewer while at the same time making the ending feel a lot more complete .. plus I love the whole philosophical vibe that Chris testifying against Tony would bring out.. since what makes it such a amazing series in the first place is a lot of the psychological damage “the life” leaves all of the civilians/family members not directly involved … I really wish this was the ending cause I’ve always had a problem with the real ending .. I don’t hate it.. but I felt like I was almost cheated.. after 6 seasons of such thoughtful television..

B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:12 pm Whenever I do a re-watch I try to be as objective as possible. While the series dips a little bit as it goes, I'm still completely on board through the end of season 5. The Adriana storyline is incredible -- not quite to the level of the Big Pussy story (best television storyline ever done) -- but despite growing up around the life Adriana was the most pure character on the show. Silvio does an absolute heel turn when he kills her and Tony's "arc" was already revealing him to be an unrepentant piece of shit (he had just tried to fuck Adriana, now he ordered her murder).

Season 5 set up season 6 to be an incredible collapse of these people and their relationships, but instead it's like the writing team threw darts at random one-off ideas and stuck with that. I still thought they were going to have Christopher flip when he kills his NarcAnon friend -- I remember watching that and thinking, "This is it. Chrissy's losing his mind and he's going to get busted on this stupid murder and flip." But no, it was another pointless storyline and Christopher gets murdered through the old "plugged nose after a car accident" trick.

Would have been incredible to see Tony's family talking to him in prison, coming to court, dealing with life with Tony off the street, coming to terms with Christopher's betrayal, etc. The show would have ended with the FBI offering Tony a deal, him not giving them an answer and talking to his family about it, then Tony alone in his cell as it cuts to black. The show should have ended with Tony alone, ala Michael Corleone.

motorfab wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:31 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:30 pm I must be one of the rare ones who liked Chase's ending. The look up, the cut to black, don't stop believing on the Duke, finally all his troubles are 'over', he's with his family, the Italian guy walks in then goes to the bathroom, Tony looks up....

Enjoyed it.

No, we are two

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:30 pm I must be one of the rare ones who liked Chase's ending. The look up, the cut to black, don't stop believing on the Duke, finally all his troubles are 'over', he's with his family, the Italian guy walks in then goes to the bathroom, Tony looks up....

Enjoyed it.

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:49 pmCouldn't get enough of little Carmine though.

It's hard to ascertain if I'll be as effective as I think I'll be.

Fuxking gold.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:29 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:16 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:43 amActually... they did make Benny. Thats what his..." I'm looking you right in the eyes" thing to Phil was at the start of Season 6, in front of Satriales. I always thought it a really good example of showing and not telling. To add, when Benny was laid up in the hospital, Tony said, " You gotta get your own customers.." He got made...at least I think he did....

Mmm...don't think so.

I disagree.. but fair enough. You think Walden was made? Cause I think they implied he was also...

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:16 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:43 amActually... they did make Benny. Thats what his..." I'm looking you right in the eyes" thing to Phil was at the start of Season 6, in front of Satriales. I always thought it a really good example of showing and not telling. To add, when Benny was laid up in the hospital, Tony said, " You gotta get your own customers.." He got made...at least I think he did....

Mmm...don't think so.

B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:40 pm Oh I did like the cut to black and that last scene was great on its own. My issue was the overall plot of S6 leading up to it.

B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:01 pm Not trying to Monday Morning QB my favorite show of all time, but a compelling end to the Sopranos would have been a massive RICO indictment against the Family, Christopher flipping during S6 after realizing Cosa Nostra took the love of his life away from him, and a tense courtroom drama during the last few episodes where Christopher testifies against Tony about all of the major murders and crimes we saw throughout the series.

The show would have ended with Tony facing life in prison, considering his loyalty to his family vs. Family, and right when Tony is deciding whether or not to flip -- cut to black. We never know. Chase could have still kept his sudden ending with unanswered questions.

Instead we got a clown storyline with Tony murdering Christopher by plugging his nose after a car accident, a visit to some random mistress of Christopher's in Las Vegas, and a peyote trip in the desert.

We're left with a neanderthal-level debate of "DID TONY DIE?!?! HERE'S WHY HE DID/DIDN'T DIE". It's just a pure guessing game that has nothing to do with Tony's inner psychology (the whole point of the show). If we had been left with the question of whether Tony flips we'd still be having interesting discussions over Tony's choice.

It would have paralleled the Massino situation just a short time earlier, too.

B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:12 pm Whenever I do a re-watch I try to be as objective as possible. While the series dips a little bit as it goes, I'm still completely on board through the end of season 5. The Adriana storyline is incredible -- not quite to the level of the Big Pussy story (best television storyline ever done) -- but despite growing up around the life Adriana was the most pure character on the show. Silvio does an absolute heel turn when he kills her and Tony's "arc" was already revealing him to be an unrepentant piece of shit (he had just tried to fuck Adriana, now he ordered her murder).

Season 5 set up season 6 to be an incredible collapse of these people and their relationships, but instead it's like the writing team threw darts at random one-off ideas and stuck with that. I still thought they were going to have Christopher flip when he kills his NarcAnon friend -- I remember watching that and thinking, "This is it. Chrissy's losing his mind and he's going to get busted on this stupid murder and flip." But no, it was another pointless storyline and Christopher gets murdered through the old "plugged nose after a car accident" trick.

Would have been incredible to see Tony's family talking to him in prison, coming to court, dealing with life with Tony off the street, coming to terms with Christopher's betrayal, etc. The show would have ended with the FBI offering Tony a deal, him not giving them an answer and talking to his family about it, then Tony alone in his cell as it cuts to black. The show should have ended with Tony alone, ala Michael Corleone.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:47 amAlso, I thought Paulie took the same stance Ralph took, as " his guys did the heavy lifting". Then Tony still rules against him again.

B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:01 pm Not trying to Monday Morning QB my favorite show of all time, but a compelling end to the Sopranos would have been a massive RICO indictment against the Family, Christopher flipping during S6 after realizing Cosa Nostra took the love of his life away from him, and a tense courtroom drama during the last few episodes where Christopher testifies against Tony about all of the major murders and crimes we saw throughout the series.

The show would have ended with Tony facing life in prison, considering his loyalty to his family vs. Family, and right when Tony is deciding whether or not to flip -- cut to black. We never know. Chase could have still kept his sudden ending with unanswered questions.

Instead we got a clown storyline with Tony murdering Christopher by plugging his nose after a car accident, a visit to some random mistress of Christopher's in Las Vegas, and a peyote trip in the desert.

We're left with a neanderthal-level debate of "DID TONY DIE?!?! HERE'S WHY HE DID/DIDN'T DIE". It's just a pure guessing game that has nothing to do with Tony's inner psychology (the whole point of the show). If we had been left with the question of whether Tony flips we'd still be having interesting discussions over Tony's choice.

It would have paralleled the Massino situation just a short time earlier, too.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:43 amActually... they did make Benny. Thats what his..." I'm looking you right in the eyes" thing to Phil was at the start of Season 6, in front of Satriales. I always thought it a really good example of showing and not telling. To add, when Benny was laid up in the hospital, Tony said, " You gotta get your own customers.." He got made...at least I think he did....

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:27 am On top of that the woke BS was all over the place.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:43 am

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:06 pm Season 6 gripes just off the top of my head...

First and foremost, too many damn episodes. 21 instead of the standard 13. Great, if you have the material to make it work, but Chase & Co. didn't. It was about the HBO money. A lot of down time and treading water, as I said. Less would have been more.

It seemed like Junior shooting Tony was just an excuse for Chase to have yet another dream sequence. If I never hear the name "Kevin Finnerty" again, it will be too soon. I get diving into the psychology of it all (a major part of what the show was about) but this just seemed repetitive.

The whole gay Vito/Johnny Cakes thing. Obvious nod to D'Amato. OK. But you take up huge chunks of multiple episodes with that?

Chris' Cleaver movie. The whole thing just seemed boring and pointless.

And speaking of boring and pointless, Tony's whole Vegas...peyote..."I get it!" trip. What is that even about?

AJ's depression. OK, the kid that didn't care about anything now cares about everything. But the character development in that regard was poor and didn't make a lot of sense.

There was some good tension between Tony and Chris. The scene where they embrace at Chris' baby's ceremony is really good but his death was anticlimactic. Was it really even necessary at all? Or did Chase simply want to kill off another major character since it was near the end and it didn't matter as much?

I've mentioned before how Phil seems to let his brother being killed slide but then, for seemingly little to no reason ("Leonardo to Leotardo?") decides to play hardball with Tony. Butchie is all for going on the warpath and pushes Phil to do so but then, inexplicably, is the one wanting a truce later on. Again, not really developed well.

Tony wants Paulie to take over the Aprile crew? What crew? As a matter of fact, who of consequence was even left in the family? Pussy long dead. Furio long gone. Richie dead. Gigi dead. Ralph dead. Tony B dead. Vito dead. Eugene dead. Burt dead. Bobby dead. Ray Curto (who was informing) dead. Carlo flipped. Larry Barese flipped also? Silvio in a permanent coma. Junior senile. As far as active made guys you had, what, Tony, Paulie, and Patsy? It's why the writers had to bring in characters like Walden out of nowhere. Maybe they could make Benny and Little Paulie. LOL.


All that is not to say Season 6 didn't have it's moments. It did.

The Monopoly game from hell.

Paulie beefing with Vito over the split from the Colombian robbery, i.e. Paulie taking the exact opposite stance he did when he had the beef with Ralph over another robbery earlier in the series. Too funny.

Ben Kingsley...."FOCK!"

Phil's "pygmy thing over in Jersey" monologue.

The intricacies of beefing with NY over Barone Sanitation, dumping asbestos, etc. The kind of "inside baseball" only those who follow the mob can appreciate.

Any dialogue from Little Carmine.

Johnny Sac's beef with Rusty.

Etc.


The 5th season set things up perfectly for a normal 13 episode 6th season where they would have had enough time, but not too much, to keep the good stuff above, wrap up the NJ vs. NY war, etc.

Actually... they did make Benny. Thats what his..." I'm looking you right in the eyes" thing to Phil was at the start of Season 6, in front of Satriales. I always thought it a really good example of showing and not telling. To add, when Benny was laid up in the hospital, Tony said, " You gotta get your own customers.." He got made...at least I think he did....