THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **PolackTony** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:41 pm

SB1825 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:12 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:50 pm
SB1825 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:50 pm
PolackTony wrote: How did Pudgy Matassa meet his wife?
Who is Matassa’s wife btw? I always read that she’s related to the Genovese family but never seen any specifics.
Lynn Matassa is allegedly the sister of Daniel Pagano. From records that I've seen, it seems that she does have relatives named Pagano.

Worth noting that from what I understand, Danny Pagano was close to Dom Cirillo. There are people here who know a lot more than I do about the Genovese, but I believe that Pagano succeeded Cirillo as captain?
Danny Pagano’s father was Joseph Pagano who was a Genovese member, as was Danny’s uncle Pasquale. Joseph was sponsored by Joe Valachi. I think Cirillo came up under him.

Thanks, I thought that Joe and Patsy Pagano were Danny’s relatives, but wasn’t sure about the exact crew/captain succession thing. If Cirillo was close to the Paganos like that, then the connection to Chicago would make perfect sense.

by **SB1825** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:12 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:50 pm
SB1825 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:50 pm
PolackTony wrote: How did Pudgy Matassa meet his wife?
Who is Matassa’s wife btw? I always read that she’s related to the Genovese family but never seen any specifics.
Lynn Matassa is allegedly the sister of Daniel Pagano. From records that I've seen, it seems that she does have relatives named Pagano.

Worth noting that from what I understand, Danny Pagano was close to Dom Cirillo. There are people here who know a lot more than I do about the Genovese, but I believe that Pagano succeeded Cirillo as captain?

Danny Pagano’s father was Joseph Pagano who was a Genovese member, as was Danny’s uncle Pasquale. Joseph was sponsored by Joe Valachi. I think Cirillo came up under him.

by **PolackTony** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:50 pm

SB1825 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:50 pm
PolackTony wrote: How did Pudgy Matassa meet his wife?
Who is Matassa’s wife btw? I always read that she’s related to the Genovese family but never seen any specifics.

Lynn Matassa is allegedly the sister of Daniel Pagano. From records that I've seen, it seems that she does have relatives named Pagano.

Worth noting that from what I understand, Danny Pagano was close to Dom Cirillo. There are people here who know a lot more than I do about the Genovese, but I believe that Pagano succeeded Cirillo as captain?

by **SB1825** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:50 pm

How did Pudgy Matassa meet his wife?
[/quote]

Who is Matassa’s wife btw? I always read that she’s related to the Genovese family but never seen any specifics.

by **PolackTony** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:43 pm

B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:32 pm That's something about Ricigliano. We don't know the extent of Vito's connections there and he felt comfortable arranging for Ricca/Chicago to help with the consigliere's murder. Like we talked about the other day you have Cirillo the alleged messaggero coming from that crew, same with Tommy Eboli.

We're talking about two of the most secretive Families and the messagero/liaison would be be carrying out contacts that should only be known at the highest levels. It's amazing we've even heard of it at all given the lack of high-level informants/witnesses from those two Families. No doubt much more we don't know.

Agreed. Lots we don't know. I'll walk over to the Cirillos and ask them.

Many connections over decades between these families. How did Pudgy Matassa meet his wife? How did Lou Auricchio just happen to hook up with Jimmy Marcello's son in Chicago a few years ago? Not like these guys were all hanging out together in Pelham Bay or on 18th Ave. Presumably, these kinds of connections would have to be deliberately maintained over decades.

by B. » Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:32 pm

That's something about Ricigliano. We don't know the extent of Vito's connections there and he felt comfortable arranging for Ricca/Chicago to help with the consigliere's murder. Like we talked about the other day you have Cirillo the alleged messaggero coming from that crew, same with Tommy Eboli.

We're talking about two of the most secretive Families and the messagero/liaison would be be carrying out contacts that should only be known at the highest levels. It's amazing we've even heard of it at all given the lack of high-level informants/witnesses from those two Families. No doubt much more we don't know.

by **PolackTony** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:24 pm

B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:54 pm Thought it was just online rumors that the Colombo guy was Dom Cirillo's father but I only know the basics about the Genovese so can't say I know.

Very interesting there's a potential Chicago connection with Dom Cirillo. Often the "messaggero" or liaison between two Families was chosen because of an existing connection between the liaison and certain people or the city itself so would make sense Cirillo was chosen for a reason. Would also provide a good "excuse", i.e. if someone is observed by the FBI visiting another city it could be masked by relatives or legit ties to the area.

Either English or Nicoletti (one of the Chucks, can't remember) is mentioned in FBI reports as Chicago's liaison to NYC so they may have had their own guy carrying out a similar role.

The address thing came up on one of those background check websites. It actually showed a Wood Dale, IL address in the early 2000s for Nicholas C Cirillo, which I believe would be Dom's son that was clipped in 2004. The info also had a Bronx address for him which corresponds to the Cirillos in Country Club and states that this Nicholas was related to Bella Cirillo (Dom Cirillo's wife).

Also worth keeping in mind again that Vito Genovese was from Ricigliano, Salerno, which sent more than half of its population to Chicago. Ricigliano is right on the border with Potenza province and is a very short distance to towns like Muro Lucano, Potenza, where the Cerones (as well as the Capezios) were from. Lots of potential paesani links there. Mainland Meridionali were at least as clannish as Sicilians, and took their paesani links and identities very seriously. In Chicago one sees Riciglianesi continuing to marry paesani for several generations after arrival in the US. It was alleged back in the day that it was considered scandalous in their community to marry outsiders even in the 2nd American generation.

by B. » Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:54 pm

Thought it was just online rumors that the Colombo guy was Dom Cirillo's father but I only know the basics about the Genovese so can't say I know.

Very interesting there's a potential Chicago connection with Dom Cirillo. Often the "messaggero" or liaison between two Families was chosen because of an existing connection between the liaison and certain people or the city itself so would make sense Cirillo was chosen for a reason. Would also provide a good "excuse", i.e. if someone is observed by the FBI visiting another city it could be masked by relatives or legit ties to the area.

Either English or Nicoletti (one of the Chucks, can't remember) is mentioned in FBI reports as Chicago's liaison to NYC so they may have had their own guy carrying out a similar role.

by **PolackTony** » Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:19 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:37 am - Dominick Cirillo's name was thrown around online years ago as the "messaggero" when Gigante was on the street but I don't know what the basis is or if it's just Wiki nonsense. He came up around the Paganos under Tommy Eboli whose son Louis was with the Chicago family.

I think this could be legit. I came across some info for one of Cirillo's kids, and he apparently had a former address in the 2000s in suburban Wood Dale, IL. Wood Dale borders Itasca and Addison, which is basically ground zero for recent Italian immigrants to Chicago and is where a lot of the zip activity was concentrated. An old NYT article by Raab stated that Dom Cirillo's father, Alphonse Cirillo, was from Potenza, Basilicata. That caught my eye, as Potentini are a major part of Chicago's Italian community and many Outfit members over the years have been of Lucani ancestry. The WW1 draft card that I located for Alfonso Cirillo, born in 1897, stated that he was from "Laurence", Italy. This would be Laurenzana, Potenza, a town that played a major role in establishing Chicago's Potentino community and which sent many migrants to Chicago. I believe that this Alfonso was the same guy who was a Colombo capodecina and Dom Cirillo's father. Dom Cirillo being an alleged messaggero to Chicago would make a lot of sense, as he almost certainly had family or paesani in Chicago. There were a whole bunch of Cirillos from Potenza province who settled in Chicago, and Chicago guys with ancestry from Laurenzana include Rocco Fanelli, Rocco Salvatore, Rocco Potenza, Joe Spadavecchio, and Tony Zizzo (mother's side).

by **CornerBoy** » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:43 am

eboli wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:41 am
motorfab wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:20 am I have a question: As little as I know about him, Santo Sorge (whose true affiliation is very unclear) seemed to be a messenger between the American & Sicilian Families. Can we consider him as a Messagero or does that have nothing to do with it ?
Sorge was a made member of either the Genovese or Bonanno crime family. He was involved in drug trafficking and ran bookmaking and numbers rackets in East Bronx. Sorge was born in Caltanissetta, Sicily, and had extensive connections to Italian politicians. His political sway made him an influential player in international mafia politics. Some documents describe him as a messenger of Luciano, but it's difficult to pinpoint his exact rank in American organized crime. He might've been a caporegime or a soldier with special privileges, direct with the administration. Sorge was a cousin of Sicilian mafia boss Giuseppe Genco Russo, also known as Zi Peppi Jencu. His political clout in Italy stemmed from this blood relation.

I had no idea that Sorge lived in NY-thanks

by B. » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:45 pm

Bill Bonanno said Santo Sorge represented Charlie Luciano at the meeting in Sicily with Joe Bonanno, Carmine Galante, etc. However, Bill said this meeting was just an informal way for the Sicilians to get advice from the Americans on organizing a Commission so hard to say if he meant Sorge was formally representing Luciano in an organizational sense. Luciano wasn't the boss anymore by that time either. Good to have healthy skepticism about Bill's comments on these meetings, though his take on it isn't too wild or anything.

Caltanissetta provided very few NYC mafia members despite being a significant mafia stronghold (back to the early-ish 1800s if we listen to Leonardo Messina), so hard to guess Sorge's affiliation based on compaesani relations. Lucchese boss Joe Pinzolo is one of the only prominent NYC guys known to come from that province. Wonder if Sorge had any ties to Pittston, Buffalo, and areas where most mafiosi from Caltanissetta settled.

Motorfab -- very interesting it's another Caltanissetta / France connection. Good job noticing that, could go back further than we know.

Wouldn't be surprised if Sorge was a Sicilian mafia member who never transferred to America but impossible to say. He must have been "amico nostra" if he attended that Sicilian meeting with the Americans. He's still an enigma to me.

by **eboli** » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:28 am

The FBI tagged him as a generic Cosa Nostra member, but I think they were just unsure where he stood because they never busted him in the US. He was IDd as a 'close associate' of Luciano, Joe Bonanno, Galante, Gambino, Giovanni Bonventre, Joe Di Palermo, Trupia, so those are connections to four of the five NYC families. Unfortunately, the FBN couldn't protect Eugene Giannini in the early 1950s. He was an informant who most likely would've been able to provide information on Sorge if he lived long enough.

by **motorfab** » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:59 am

lol, indeed, I'll take this info carefuly ^^. Thanks eboli

by **eboli** » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:49 am

motorfab wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:27 am
eboli wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:41 am
motorfab wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:20 am I have a question: As little as I know about him, Santo Sorge (whose true affiliation is very unclear) seemed to be a messenger between the American & Sicilian Families. Can we consider him as a Messagero or does that have nothing to do with it ?
Sorge was a made member of either the Genovese or Bonanno crime family. He was involved in drug trafficking and ran bookmaking and numbers rackets in East Bronx. Sorge was born in Caltanissetta, Sicily, and had extensive connections to Italian politicians. His political sway made him an influential player in international mafia politics. Some documents describe him as a messenger of Luciano, but it's difficult to pinpoint his exact rank in American organized crime. He might've been a caporegime or a soldier with special privileges, direct with the administration. Sorge was a cousin of Sicilian mafia boss Giuseppe Genco Russo, also known as Zi Peppi Jencu. His political clout in Italy stemmed from this blood relation.

He was most definitely a messenger, but it's unclear whose and for what purpose.
Yes, he also had a past in France and was deported in 1932. Unfortunately I never found an article about him, or where he was. Probably Marseille or Paris the high places of the underworld or Grenoble which has a large colony coming from the province of Caltanissetta. He was perhaps there with a false name. But it's only a supposition, I have no idea. Just checked, he was born in Mussomeli like Genco Russo

This is the first time that I see a reference to him related to the Bonannos, do you have a something specific about that ? According to the FBN he was associate with Galante & Joe B

It was in an FBN memo from the 1940s. The same memo referenced an NYPD report which identified Carmine Galante as a 'small-time hood' or something of that nature, so it should be taken with a grain of salt. As you know, years later Sorge was described as a lieutenant of Luciano.

by **motorfab** » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:27 am

eboli wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:41 am
motorfab wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:20 am I have a question: As little as I know about him, Santo Sorge (whose true affiliation is very unclear) seemed to be a messenger between the American & Sicilian Families. Can we consider him as a Messagero or does that have nothing to do with it ?
Sorge was a made member of either the Genovese or Bonanno crime family. He was involved in drug trafficking and ran bookmaking and numbers rackets in East Bronx. Sorge was born in Caltanissetta, Sicily, and had extensive connections to Italian politicians. His political sway made him an influential player in international mafia politics. Some documents describe him as a messenger of Luciano, but it's difficult to pinpoint his exact rank in American organized crime. He might've been a caporegime or a soldier with special privileges, direct with the administration. Sorge was a cousin of Sicilian mafia boss Giuseppe Genco Russo, also known as Zi Peppi Jencu. His political clout in Italy stemmed from this blood relation.

He was most definitely a messenger, but it's unclear whose and for what purpose.

Yes, he also had a past in France and was deported in 1932. Unfortunately I never found an article about him, or where he was. Probably Marseille or Paris the high places of the underworld or Grenoble which has a large colony coming from the province of Caltanissetta. He was perhaps there with a false name. But it's only a supposition, I have no idea. Just checked, he was born in Mussomeli like Genco Russo

This is the first time that I see a reference to him related to the Bonannos, do you have a something specific about that ? According to the FBN he was associate with Galante & Joe B

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