THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Etna** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:37 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:26 am
Etna wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 am
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:08 pm
Etna wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:29 am
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York
Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.
Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...
Sorry, I did not intend to stray beyond Catania either. Except I think to understand Catania, you need to include territories beyond Catania. Palermo is fixed on a geographic territory, where as the Catania cosca and others are constantly expanding into other areas that are not as clearly defined. But I think the Catania cosca is definitely among the more powerful families. But I don't have enough information about manpower or legit/illegitimate assets for each family.

As illegal as these organizations are though, I'd love to see the impossible scenario of them publishing their own financial statements.
Oh, dont apologize..... your post was VERY interesting...
Like I said, I maybe Titled the thread incorrectly.....

Eastern Sicily is an area I'd like to learn more about as far as OC goes.

by **CabriniGreen** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:26 am

Etna wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 am
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:08 pm
Etna wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:29 am
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York
Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.
Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...
Sorry, I did not intend to stray beyond Catania either. Except I think to understand Catania, you need to include territories beyond Catania. Palermo is fixed on a geographic territory, where as the Catania cosca and others are constantly expanding into other areas that are not as clearly defined. But I think the Catania cosca is definitely among the more powerful families. But I don't have enough information about manpower or legit/illegitimate assets for each family.

As illegal as these organizations are though, I'd love to see the impossible scenario of them publishing their own financial statements.

Oh, dont apologize..... your post was VERY interesting...
Like I said, I maybe Titled the thread incorrectly.....

by **Etna** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:08 pm
Etna wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:29 am
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York
Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.
Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...

Sorry, I did not intend to stray beyond Catania either. Except I think to understand Catania, you need to include territories beyond Catania. Palermo is fixed on a geographic territory, where as the Catania cosca and others are constantly expanding into other areas that are not as clearly defined. But I think the Catania cosca is definitely among the more powerful families. But I don't have enough information about manpower or legit/illegitimate assets for each family.

As illegal as these organizations are though, I'd love to see the impossible scenario of them publishing their own financial statements.

by **Strax** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:08 pm

Also their power mostly come from connections to politicians/secret services/masonic lodges and in Palermo are most powerful ones.

Stefano Carmelo Serpa pentito from 'Ndrangheta during Stato-Mafia trial said:

"I'm afraid, these people are very dangerous. I speak neither of the 'Ndrangheta nor of politicians, but of the secret services. And before talking about the relations between 'Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra, I want serious assurances about my security. You don't know the submerged part of the 'Ndrangheta. It means that inside there are people who have even greater power than what Paolo De Stefano had. There are characters inside that at their command were worth and still worth more than him. But these are people you don't even know. They don't even have a fine."

Its pretty much same with Cosa Nostra and Palermo is center their power since forever. Camorra lacks the connections that 'Ndrangheta and Sicilians have.

by **Strax** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:52 pm

Its not just situation in Pagliarelli but all over Palermo we see people go to the mafia when they need help/something done , instead of going to state and institutions. There are a tons of arrests in Palermo all the time , but they are actually growing stronger and stronger after Riina's war vs state that crippled them( not just Riina's , they never managed to uncover whole political background behind all of it ). Also a lot of arrested guys get released, in Italy you are guilty until proven otherwise, so arrested guys get released after trial. Also a lot of seized assets goes back to mafia hands , no one wants to buy assets seized from the mafia , so they are bough back by people close to organized crime again and again. I even think mafia in Trapani is stronger than Catania.

by **CabriniGreen** » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:42 pm

I also agree on the Madamento being the level where decision making takes form.

That article I posted has blood feuds, info on Calvalruso dominating Pagliarelli and actually having REAL business sense beyond even being a mafiosi,
( They talk about him increasing the number of employees at a restaurant from like 7 to 21 or something, I gotta read it again...) info on entirely newly formed families, some of which are ENTIRELY family based, and heavily involved in drug trafficking, the equivalent of Scampia in Messina, huge Catanian operations...

I thought it plenty interesting....

by **CabriniGreen** » Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:08 pm

Etna wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:29 am
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York
Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.

Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...

by **Etna** » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:29 am

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York

Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.

by **Strax** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:42 am

Pretty much what Wiseguy said, not just Palermo , but Trapani mafia very powerful , even more than Catania. In Trapani you have a lot of masonic lodges, Iside 2 is one of most powerful local masonic lodges from Sicily and its from Trapani. Mafia in Palermo are more powerful than mafia in Catania, thanks to more members,more money in Palermo in general,powerful politicians,masonic lodges and so on.

by **Wiseguy** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:19 am

Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York

by **scagghiuni** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:25 am

palermo families are involved in sport books too, marijuana plantations, politics connections and all the rackets santapaola-ercolano are involved in according to DIA there are about 2500 affiliates in palermo province and less than 200 in catania; palermo bosses wanted to make the cappello family the principal referent of cosa nostra in palermo, just to look how they control mafia politics in catania itself

by **CabriniGreen** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:01 am

scagghiuni wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:47 am you should follow indictments of the latest two decades, palermo is still the stronghold of cosa nostra, the fact that in the latests months catania seems more active means nothing

Latest months? Lol, I'm talking YEARS man. The Santopaolo- Ercolano clan is going on what, 50 years of being ruled by the same clan? And I'm not talking about VOLUME of indictments. Palermo has what? 50, 100 families? More? Of course they have more indictments. The Catania operations are usually quite impressive.

Catania seems to have bigger operations. Maybe it's because it's a single family? Palermo has been under siege since Riina, it's only since they moved beyond the Corleonesi have they seem to be regaining a lot of lost strength, prime example being the rejuvenation of the American relations. Dont go all, my teams better than yours on me now. We know Palermo is the hub, just like NY is the hub over here. I'm always on and on about Italy in general, today it happens to be Catania. I didnt say Palermo is dogshit, I said the Catania families overall seem more organized at the moment.

A perfect example is the sports books. The biggest sports books I've seen arnt run by Palermo people, its Catania guys, Ndrangheta, some Naples guys, and the Martiradonnas.

What's the biggest Palermo based Sportsbook you've seen?

by **scagghiuni** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:47 am

you should follow indictments of the latest two decades, palermo is still the stronghold of cosa nostra, the fact that in the latests months catania seems more active means nothing

by **CabriniGreen** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:34 am

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:57 am Any chance of the cliff notes on this CG?

Heres one example of Catanias business prowess....

Rivers of money traveled between Sicily, Malta and Poland
A network of 887 online betting agencies throughout Italy. March 3, 2021: 12 arrested, 2 under house arrest, 336 under investigation.

In Lineri, a hamlet of Misterbianco (CT), the brothers Carmelo and Giuseppe Gabriele Placenti, a Mafia clan from Catania Ercolano-Santapaola, had devised a fairly efficient system to illegally collect cash, escape Italian controls and build a small empire of economic activities.

In fact, the 887 sports betting and gaming agencies scattered throughout the national territory only minimally focused on online gambling. Real wealth was accumulated through “over the counter” bets, that is, those made face-to-face and in cash. A mass of money of 32 million euros which was then transferred to Poland and Malta. From here he returned back to Italy, in Emilia Romagna and Puglia, in the form of purchases of land, buildings and productive activities.

The "keyboard mafia"
The entire online gaming network was without Italian authorization, and while servers and software were managed by IT engineers in Serbia, the ownership of the "Raisebet24.com" platform was Maltese precisely to make it more difficult to trace the link with Italy. and the crime network.

Wednesday, March 3, 12 people went to prison, 2 under house arrest and 9 people were banned from doing business. 336 are the suspects. The "Double game" operation, which began in 2015, blocked 80 million euros of assets, 62 of financial resources, 180,000 euros in cash.

“The keyboard mafia” was doing so well that it had to expand into western Sicily as well. The two Placenti brothers, in fact, were providing the necessary know-how to Matteo Messina Denaro's nephew, Francesco Guttadauro.

It's just, everytime theres an investigation, it always seems to be a huge operation getting busted. And the Santopaola clan seems very connected, to Ndrangheta, the Casalesi, the Licciardi. The Capello clan seems super strong as well.

Whereas Palermo seems under constant surveillance and unable to fully reconstitute, Catania seems to just have massive operations going all the time.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:57 am

Any chance of the cliff notes on this CG?

THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Is Catania actually stronger than Palermo currently?

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