1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

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Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by B. » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:08 am

B. wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:08 pm Valachi on Luciano's ruling not to recognize Sicilian mafia members:

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Harry Riccobene's comments are similar to Valachi's, though he comes from the POV of a US member who wants to transfer to Sicily:

Image

Again the word "accepted" is used, which makes me think that is the FBI's interpretation, not necessarily the word Valachi and Riccobene used. Gravano did use it on tape, though.

Riccobene emphasizes that a transfer / recognition is not "automatic" at "present time", which could mean at one point it was easy to transfer back and forth in Riccobene's eyes. As mentioned, Gentile's account backs this up as well as other info about early US transfers. Riccobene was made in the 1920s and from multiple generations of Sicilian members so he may have had direct knowledge of all this. He knew the age rules for both the US and Sicilian Cosa Nostra, which was later confirmed by a Sicilian pentito, so he did have some obscure knowledge.

The idea of someone "proving themselves" also makes sense. Rather than just accept someone as a transfer because of a handwritten letter, it does seem families would prefer to use an empty slot only if the transfer would be an asset. Maybe this is why so many of the "zips" who joined NYC families were so powerful.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by ng » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:30 pm

scagghiuni wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:16 am
ng wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:56 am How many members does passo di ragano currently have?
the mandamento about 100 if i remember right the dia report
Thanks for answering that brother, ive read one but my italian is rusty and probably mistranslated it.

Is there a more recently released version than the 2019 version? I found all the maps fascinating personally

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by Villain » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:44 pm

Great stuff. Never knew about Lucianos mandate against transfers from Sicily.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by scagghiuni » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:16 am

ng wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:56 am How many members does passo di ragano currently have?
the mandamento about 100 if i remember right the dia report

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by cobra » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:04 am

-tommaso buscetta speaked about it
-he said in usa the bosses feel they struggle a lot after they arrive
-now if they accepted all member from sicily then they feel its unfair

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by B. » Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:17 pm

Valachi did say one of the reasons for Luciano's message was that Luciano felt members from "Italy" couldn't be trusted and might be informants. Luciano had a very close and strange relationship with LE sources where he was able to identify a number of informants, but who knows what this was based on. I find Luciano's behavior and motivations suspect in all kinds of ways from the 1940s until his death.

I don't think the concern was the more Sicilian NYC families having too many members. We can't be sure when exactly the caps were put in place, but we have reason to believe a transfer would take up a slot in the same way a new member does -- they aren't supposed to exceed the cap either way.

Paolo Violi said a Sicilian member could only transfer if he was deemed acceptable after a probation period and only if there was a slot available, which is the same protocol for inducting members. There is no way Paolo Violi invented the rules discussed on the Montreal tapes by himself, so we can assume he was describing standard transfer procedure for any given family, at least the Bonannos but probably everyone since the Sicilian mafia would have to agree to it as well. Gentile never talked about caps / slots but everything else he described is consistent with Violi and even modern transfers (i.e. Joe Gambino getting Lombardo "released" from Sicily via letter).

I don't think it's a coincidence that we haven't found concrete info on Sal Catalano, Gerlando Sciascia, or Nino + Pietro Inzerillo going through induction ceremonies in the 1970s. We're missing plenty of info, sure, though there is reason to believe they were Sicilian mafia members who transferred.

I suspect John Gambino was made in Sicily like his brother Rosario but unlike Rosario chose to transfer to NYC, maybe alongside the older Inzerillos. Gravano knew Gambino to be made already in 1976 but didn't have info on his induction. All three Gambino brothers were suspected by investigators of being made in Sicily, but we know Joe wasn't made until 1988 in NYC. John's exact entry into the Gambino family is still a mystery.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by PolackTony » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:28 pm

Any theorizing as to why Luciano would’ve implemented this mandate? I guess you guys already touched on a possibility, limiting the influence of Sicilian families in local mafia politics. Just speculating, but I wonder if part of this was also a balance of power concern between the NY families. As B already noted, this issue was a moot point for Luciano’s family, as they wouldn’t likely be taking any Sicilian transfers anyway. But if Bonnano, Mangano, Profaci could bring in a bunch of transfers, not only would they have a strong line of association to a source of power outside of the US LCN and Commission, but perhaps they would be able to continue to swell their ranks. I don’t know if these transfers, if they had hypothetically occurred, would’ve been subject to the induction membership caps on the families, so I’m wondering if that could’ve also been part of Luciano’s concern.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by CabriniGreen » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:55 pm

B. wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:42 am Cabrini, you made a great point that it shouldn't be looked at as a "rule" but simply a political move. If Luciano sent word that Sicilians shouldn't be recognized it would have little impact on the Genovese family. Most of the members were non-Sicilian and they didn't maintain strong ties to Sicily except through Luciano. Even though Luciano couldn't stop the other bosses from recognizing Sicilian members, it would still impact the bigger picture of NYC->Sicilian relationships in a deeply political way.

Looking over this thread again, I want to point out that Gravano and Valachi both used the word "accept" when referring to Sicilian mafiosi who joined NYC families. I'm sure I've seen it before, but it's not common for members to use the word "accept" to describe someone being newly inducted.

I also think that FBI report from Valachi is saying that Luciano's ruling had more to do with US families not guaranteeing that a Sicilian could join them. In the early days if someone followed the right protocol and wasn't a troublemaker, they could easily count on a transfer. Looking at the pre-1940s, I've never seen a single reference to a member who moved permanently to the US and kept formal affiliation with his original Sicilian family. When Gentile moved back to Sicily, he transferred to a Sicilian family and when he moved back to the US he immediately transferred again. At some point Milwaukee had a Sicilian mafia member who moved to Milwaukee and associated with the local family but never transferred (source: Maniaci), which became common on the east coast later on.

Valachi said "exceptions" were made where a Sicilian member could be sponsored / accepted and that fits our knowledge post-1930s. Transfers happened but they were exceptional.

--

Other examples of transfers:

- Giuseppe Buccellato came to the US in 1959 after the books closed and was recognized as a Bonanno member after the Bonanno war, if not earlier. He was either a member of the Castellammare or Tunis family before he came to NYC. Close to Natale Evola, who I believe was more influential in shaping the 1970s Bonanno Sicilian faction than we realize.

- Antonino Busciglio came to the US in the 1960s and a report says he was already a "made guy" in Sicily. He was identified as a made member of the Bonanno family by the early 1970s, suggesting he transferred, possibly with the help of Bonanno leader Angelo Caruso. The same might be true of his uncle Angelo Salvo.

- Bonanno captain Pietro Licata was identified by the fascist government in the 1930s as a mafioso in Sicily and appears to have already been a made member before coming to the US and joining the Bonannos.
Thanks B. And I agree with your take, that Lucianos ruling had more to do with preserving the power of American families. He might have even been insecure about the level of influence some guys like Profaci and Bonnano had in Sicily.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by thekiduknow » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:17 am

George Sciascia was also a transfer I believe.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by B. » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:42 am

Cabrini, you made a great point that it shouldn't be looked at as a "rule" but simply a political move. If Luciano sent word that Sicilians shouldn't be recognized it would have little impact on the Genovese family. Most of the members were non-Sicilian and they didn't maintain strong ties to Sicily except through Luciano. Even though Luciano couldn't stop the other bosses from recognizing Sicilian members, it would still impact the bigger picture of NYC->Sicilian relationships in a deeply political way.

Looking over this thread again, I want to point out that Gravano and Valachi both used the word "accept" when referring to Sicilian mafiosi who joined NYC families. I'm sure I've seen it before, but it's not common for members to use the word "accept" to describe someone being newly inducted.

I also think that FBI report from Valachi is saying that Luciano's ruling had more to do with US families not guaranteeing that a Sicilian could join them. In the early days if someone followed the right protocol and wasn't a troublemaker, they could easily count on a transfer. Looking at the pre-1940s, I've never seen a single reference to a member who moved permanently to the US and kept formal affiliation with his original Sicilian family. When Gentile moved back to Sicily, he transferred to a Sicilian family and when he moved back to the US he immediately transferred again. At some point Milwaukee had a Sicilian mafia member who moved to Milwaukee and associated with the local family but never transferred (source: Maniaci), which became common on the east coast later on.

Valachi said "exceptions" were made where a Sicilian member could be sponsored / accepted and that fits our knowledge post-1930s. Transfers happened but they were exceptional.

--

Other examples of transfers:

- Giuseppe Buccellato came to the US in 1959 after the books closed and was recognized as a Bonanno member after the Bonanno war, if not earlier. He was either a member of the Castellammare or Tunis family before he came to NYC. Close to Natale Evola, who I believe was more influential in shaping the 1970s Bonanno Sicilian faction than we realize.

- Antonino Busciglio came to the US in the 1960s and a report says he was already a "made guy" in Sicily. He was identified as a made member of the Bonanno family by the early 1970s, suggesting he transferred, possibly with the help of Bonanno leader Angelo Caruso. The same might be true of his uncle Angelo Salvo.

- Bonanno captain Pietro Licata was identified by the fascist government in the 1930s as a mafioso in Sicily and appears to have already been a made member before coming to the US and joining the Bonannos.

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by ng » Sun May 16, 2021 9:56 am

How many members does passo di ragano currently have?

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by CabriniGreen » Sat May 15, 2021 4:01 am

I'll throw some thoughts out there for the sake of discussion........

wrote:
- In the transcript it becomes clear that Bruno didn't understand Perella's exact complaint. Perella tries to point out to Bruno that his complaint involved a previous mafia rule against introducing Sicilian members to Americans. It seems Perella heard the same rule as Valachi (allegedly sent via Luciano) barring formal introductions between Sicilians and Americans. Bruno never addresses this exact complaint, not seeming to understand or acknowledge it.
In my opinion, Bruno didnt understand the complaint because it isnt really a rule, so much as a political RULING.

First off, it's ironic Luciano, who was banished to Italy, would forbid Americans from interacting with Sicilians, he DID BUSINESS with Sicilian bosses, right? Did they pull a, " Hey, you dont count over here?", or no? Did the Italians exclude any of the deportees? I dont think they did that to him, or any of the other guys, even if they wernt Sicilian like say, Joe Adonis. Genovese? I dunno, I could be wrong. Although, there IS that incident where someone slapped him.

Its political and situational. It has to do with vested interest. There really isnt a set rule, or rather, there wasnt. How was Luciano going to STOP guys like Profaci and Bonnano from Sicilian interactions? Also, was this rule before or after he needed Sicilian help for the Americans, the military, I mean.


It's funny to me. In the 60s, the Sicilians started coming over. Some bosses were ok with it, like Castellano, the Bonnanos, Bruno. Notice these borgatas at that time were somewhat, kinda Genovese rivals. Now I know Chin was close to Paul, but the moves on Bruno, not recognizing Sicilian members, the awkward drug ban, all if this benefits the Genovese, not the Gambinos or Bonnanos. I never got why Paul allowed this, but Lefty gave a clue in the Brasco book. He said Tieri had the power, then got knocked down by the Commission, and then Paul and Dellacroce had it. But I think their power was somewhat fractured, I'm not sure if Neil and Paul were always in lockstep.





wrote:
- Bruno seems to have no idea what Perella is talking about and continues to argue from the POV that he had been previously introduced to Sinatra therefore had the right to introduce him. Bruno doesn't seem to understand Perella is referring to something along the lines of Luciano's rule barring Sicilian/American introductions. Suggests the earlier Philly boss(es) honored Luciano's rule (assuming it originated with Luciano), while Bruno either wasn't informed of it when he was made in the 1950s or he ignored it. We have numerous evidence that Bruno recognized Sicilian mafia members: John Stanfa is believed to have been a Sicilian transfer; Bruno introduced Sicilian mafia member Rosario Gambino to Nicky Scarfo as "amico nos"; Bruno was formally introduced to mafia leaders all over Sicily during a 1960s trip.


I'm reminded of a post you made, about Tieri holding a sitdown, a SITDOWN, WITH a Sicilian mafia member present, and representing himself. So Tieri was good with it, but then the Chins becomes boss, and hes against it? Political, situational.

Imagine a Sicilian gangster at that time. You got Inzerillos in Brooklyn, Zips on Knickerbocker, Zips in Philly. You KNOW THIS. But a soldier in Canada, Violi says, no, you arnt welcome, it's a RULE....? Yet bosses in Sicily are PARTNERS with the Americans. To make it worse, hes Calabrian, lol.....



wrote: Just shows that even in the same family there were different attitudes/understandings of the relationship between Sicilian and American members. Perella and Bruno were both part of the Sicilian faction, too.

This is the same conversation where Bruno talks about how even old time members must check in with their captains once a month or be shelved. He used the example of Joe Maggio as an elderly member who was retired at the shore. Bruno said guys like this didn't care if they were shelved because they were old and retired, but said if their younger relatives have a problem they could need the mafia to help them, so that should be incentive for the old timers to maintain contact with the capodecina.

The origin of Scarfos touching base philosophy?



Three Fingers Coppola....... did he transfer back and forth?

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by B. » Thu May 13, 2021 11:50 pm

Not exactly related to transfers but recognition/introductions between Sicily/USA:

- In the 1960s, there was a dispute in the Philly family after member Tony Perella (Joe Scafidi brother-in-law) criticized boss Angelo Bruno behind his back for introducing his cousin Calogero Sinatra as "amico nostra" to the Philly membership. Perella evidently felt Bruno wasn't allowed to introduce a Sicilian man of honor to American members. Perella made these complaints to his brother-in-law "Jimmy" LNU (probably Gioe*) and Michael Tramontana, both made members. "Jimmy" and Tramontana were uncomfortable with Perella's conduct and one of them reported his comments to the administration. Bruno took the issue up with Perella directly.

= The FBI recorded a meeting between Bruno and Perella where Bruno admonished Perella for his comments and stated that Perella was not only wrong for talking behind Bruno's back when he should have addressed the issue directly with Bruno, but that Perella was wrong about the issue anyway. Bruno explained that he had been formally introduced to his cousin Sinatra at a dinner with the Commission, therefore he had the right to introduce his cousin as a member to the Philly family. We know from other info that Bruno also consulted a "Joe" about whether he should introduce Sinatra to the Philly membership; Joe said yes, and that he wanted to be introduced to Sinatra as well. The FBI guessed "Joe" was Joe Rugnetta, but it might be Joe Traina who Bruno frequently contacted for administative advice.

- In the transcript it becomes clear that Bruno didn't understand Perella's exact complaint. Perella tries to point out to Bruno that his complaint involved a previous mafia rule against introducing Sicilian members to Americans. It seems Perella heard the same rule as Valachi (allegedly sent via Luciano) barring formal introductions between Sicilians and Americans. Bruno never addresses this exact complaint, not seeming to understand or acknowledge it.

- Bruno seems to have no idea what Perella is talking about and continues to argue from the POV that he had been previously introduced to Sinatra therefore had the right to introduce him. Bruno doesn't seem to understand Perella is referring to something along the lines of Luciano's rule barring Sicilian/American introductions. Suggests the earlier Philly boss(es) honored Luciano's rule (assuming it originated with Luciano), while Bruno either wasn't informed of it when he was made in the 1950s or he ignored it. We have numerous evidence that Bruno recognized Sicilian mafia members: John Stanfa is believed to have been a Sicilian transfer; Bruno introduced Sicilian mafia member Rosario Gambino to Nicky Scarfo as "amico nos"; Bruno was formally introduced to mafia leaders all over Sicily during a 1960s trip.

Just shows that even in the same family there were different attitudes/understandings of the relationship between Sicilian and American members. Perella and Bruno were both part of the Sicilian faction, too.

This is the same conversation where Bruno talks about how even old time members must check in with their captains once a month or be shelved. He used the example of Joe Maggio as an elderly member who was retired at the shore. Bruno said guys like this didn't care if they were shelved because they were old and retired, but said if their younger relatives have a problem they could need the mafia to help them, so that should be incentive for the old timers to maintain contact with the capodecina.

--

* - Trrenton member Jimmy Gioe was from Belmonte Mezzagno, the same hometown as Perella's in-laws the Scafidis and Barrales. I suspect the Perellas are from Belmonte as well. I haven't found the exact relation aside from "Jimmy" being called Perella's "brother-in-law".

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by B. » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:54 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:52 am I think the only members to ever go through an induction twice are the guys from the DeCavalcante family. Their Bonanno family style induction wasn’t good enough for Gotti so they had to do a traditional style ceremony at his behest. I think JD had a list of some of the re induction ceremonies.
Yeah, he said everyone made from at least 1976 onward had to be re-made. Makes you wonder if the guys made in the 1950s and earlier went through a traditional ceremony or, like the Bonanno family, if it went back generations.
baldo wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:26 am Always found this trans-continental connection fascinating. When would you say it ended or are there still some connections today?
Info on recent cases involving the Sicilian mafia and NYC families:

Bonanno
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6182

Gambino
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4894

Re: 1990s source on Sicilian->American transfers

by baldo » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:26 am

Always found this trans-continental connection fascinating. When would you say it ended or are there still some connections today?

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