by outfit guy » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:05 am
newera_212 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:30 pm
The AB / Gotti thing has been talked about to death and spun a thousand different ways - but first off, I don't even think there were any BGF guys at Marion, Lewisburg, and the other Fed joints that the AB had a foothold in. Their numbers were pretty low by that time, and the members they had left in the early or mid 90s were in Pelican Bay - they never really had a federal presence and never branched out from California to the Feds like the AB did.
Either way, in the big AB indictment, I think in 2002, there a few quips about Gotti in there - and it was phrased to where the ABs were trying work with Gotti, versus extort him. I know the feds just pile on the charges and they sensationalize things a bit themselves, but I'd tend to trust the actual indictment... which I'm pretty sure actually charges somebody with conspiracy to murder Walter Johnson more than I believe the stories from people like Greschner, Casper Crowell (who wasn't even in the Fed system at that time), and all the other AB drop outs who talk about how badass they were. A lot of these guys, as treacherous as they were, were complete nobodies who experienced their first and only taste of power and money when they hit the Prison system.
There are other lines in the indictment that mention Mills having a convo with somebody (somebody who is an AB leader himself, today) about helping Gotti, and supposedly Mills debated whether or not to have somebody who was due for release soon to catch another charge in Prison so they could stay and work with Gotti, but he decided against it.
Check out the AB dossier that the FBI has up on their website - I think a lot of the info on there came from Michael Thompson - but it really covers the era from when they started to organize into an actual enterprise from a looser Prison gang - and covers the era when they started to move into the Federal system. It said as early as 1983 I believe they were "working with" and "receiving advice" from LCN members , with Ernest Abbemonte being a close ally.
Not every Federal prison has strict race based politics and self segregation that would allow the AB to be the top dogs anyway. I'm sure some of the West Coast USPs do, but it's the California State system that these guys really run. The Mills / Federal era was pretty short lived and limited to a small handful of prisons...like 4 or 5 at most... in the entire country.
Great post and well thought out. The BGF went underground with recruitment for a while in the hopes of keeping its members from being validated. Given the mother ships of Bloods and Crips (especially Crips) are in L.A. they are aligned - and often - roll up to the BGF. Black gangs have numbers, but like the AB, BGF are the toughest of the tough of black prisoners. Again, I'll believe Valdemar over any "intuition" I may feel. The BGF, via the Crips, have a long reach in federal systems. And yes, like the AB, BGF leaders are moved throughout the federal system.
Look, Gotti is another white inmate. The Brand dominates white inmates. Gotti could do things for them; so he was kept close. But like all other whites, he's essentially part of the wood pile. You can't selectively collect information. Listen and read J. Greschner; he confirms most all of this. Gotti, to the AB, is just another woodpecker, and if you have something they want, they aint asking.
I would love to see that dossier; please provide hyperlink. Again, reading too much into LCN and advice. I'll send a link later. The Brand recently took over the Ride (Nazi Low-Riders) that have been around since the 60s; they green-lighted and slaughtered them even in lock-down. There isn't a white gang besides the Dirty White Boys that are not under their complete control.
Some "color" to your commentary. No one does business in low security prisons and medium security prisons as everyone looking to parole and most snitches. The big money are in the true Big Houses: Lewisburg, Marion, Atlanta, Leavanworth, which they dominated. Their reach is as far in the federal system wherever there are white gangs (even DWB) and Surenos (the Hand and Shamrock are one).
Article for you:
SANTA ANA — Two black prison gang members testified Wednesday that the notorious Aryan Brotherhood was too small and weak to attack a rival black gang behind bars and incite a race war that left two inmates dead.The testimony of the witnesses, members of the Crips and Black Guerrilla Family, came in the final days of a sweeping federal racketeering trial against the white supremacist gang.The case, believed to be one of the largest death penalty cases in U.S. history, alleges that imprisoned Aryan Brotherhood ringleaders orchestrated 32 murders and attempted murders over a 30-year period. Of the 40 people originally arrested, up to 16 could face the death penalty in several trials.At the heart of the government’s case is a 1997 race riot at a prison in Lewisburg, Pa., that resulted in the deaths of two members of the DC Blacks prison gang. Prosecutors allege the hits were ordered by way of a secret message sent by two Aryan Brotherhood members currently on trial — Barry “The Baron” Mills and T.D. “The Hulk” Bingham — from another prison.Wednesday, an imprisoned member of the Black Guerrilla Family gang testified that the Aryan Brotherhood was severely outnumbered in the federal prison system by the DC Blacks.Witness James “Doc” Holiday said 10 Aryan Brotherhood members at most were at his prison, while the DC Blacks were “the majority.”Holiday said DC Blacks had a type of violent mentality that didn’t exist among other prison gangs. He said the racial strife was largely instigated by the black gang, with the Aryan Brotherhood defending itself.When tensions started to rise among black and white inmates in 1996 and 1997, Mills tried to ease the problem rather than inflame it, Holiday said.“I know him and I know that he wouldn’t initiate something like that because he knows the consequences,” Holiday said of the racial problems.“Only the young and the foolish and the uninitiated would start something like that in prison,” said Holiday, serving two life terms for drug violations.Earlier in the day, another inmate and member of the Crips testified that the DC Blacks vastly outnumbered the white supremacist gang, which had to act in self-defense.“I care how it comes out because I know these people,” said Mick Daughtery, in prison nearly 30 years on drug convictions. “But I’m not biased.”The government alleges Bingham passed a secret message that read “War with DC Blacks, TD” to Aryan Brotherhood members at the Lewisburg prison in 1997 after racial strife broke out at a prison in Marion, Ill.A series of government witnesses have testified that they helped pass the contents of the message written in invisible ink made from urine.The defense has argued that the message was a warning to Aryan Brotherhood members at other prisons about escalating racial tensions, and that it was misinterpreted by those who received it.Holiday testified that the troubles at Marion began when a member of the DC Blacks assaulted a white inmate with a radio because he wanted to be transferred to another prison. Things escalated, he said, when DC Blacks attacked white inmates in the prison yard.The trial began in mid-March and entered its final days this week. Defense attorneys for Bingham, Mills and another defendant, Edgar “The Snail” Hevle, have rested their cases.The trial was recessed until July 6, when an attorney for the fourth defendant, Christopher Gibson, will begin his defense. Closing arguments are expected to begin July 11.
[quote=newera_212 post_id=196676 time=1623022214 user_id=5522]
The AB / Gotti thing has been talked about to death and spun a thousand different ways - but first off, I don't even think there were any BGF guys at Marion, Lewisburg, and the other Fed joints that the AB had a foothold in. Their numbers were pretty low by that time, and the members they had left in the early or mid 90s were in Pelican Bay - they never really had a federal presence and never branched out from California to the Feds like the AB did.
Either way, in the big AB indictment, I think in 2002, there a few quips about Gotti in there - and it was phrased to where the ABs were trying work with Gotti, versus extort him. I know the feds just pile on the charges and they sensationalize things a bit themselves, but I'd tend to trust the actual indictment... which I'm pretty sure actually charges somebody with conspiracy to murder Walter Johnson more than I believe the stories from people like Greschner, Casper Crowell (who wasn't even in the Fed system at that time), and all the other AB drop outs who talk about how badass they were. A lot of these guys, as treacherous as they were, were complete nobodies who experienced their first and only taste of power and money when they hit the Prison system.
There are other lines in the indictment that mention Mills having a convo with somebody (somebody who is an AB leader himself, today) about helping Gotti, and supposedly Mills debated whether or not to have somebody who was due for release soon to catch another charge in Prison so they could stay and work with Gotti, but he decided against it.
Check out the AB dossier that the FBI has up on their website - I think a lot of the info on there came from Michael Thompson - but it really covers the era from when they started to organize into an actual enterprise from a looser Prison gang - and covers the era when they started to move into the Federal system. It said as early as 1983 I believe they were "working with" and "receiving advice" from LCN members , with Ernest Abbemonte being a close ally.
Not every Federal prison has strict race based politics and self segregation that would allow the AB to be the top dogs anyway. I'm sure some of the West Coast USPs do, but it's the California State system that these guys really run. The Mills / Federal era was pretty short lived and limited to a small handful of prisons...like 4 or 5 at most... in the entire country.
[/quote]
Great post and well thought out. The BGF went underground with recruitment for a while in the hopes of keeping its members from being validated. Given the mother ships of Bloods and Crips (especially Crips) are in L.A. they are aligned - and often - roll up to the BGF. Black gangs have numbers, but like the AB, BGF are the toughest of the tough of black prisoners. Again, I'll believe Valdemar over any "intuition" I may feel. The BGF, via the Crips, have a long reach in federal systems. And yes, like the AB, BGF leaders are moved throughout the federal system.
Look, Gotti is another white inmate. The Brand dominates white inmates. Gotti could do things for them; so he was kept close. But like all other whites, he's essentially part of the wood pile. You can't selectively collect information. Listen and read J. Greschner; he confirms most all of this. Gotti, to the AB, is just another woodpecker, and if you have something they want, they aint asking.
I would love to see that dossier; please provide hyperlink. Again, reading too much into LCN and advice. I'll send a link later. The Brand recently took over the Ride (Nazi Low-Riders) that have been around since the 60s; they green-lighted and slaughtered them even in lock-down. There isn't a white gang besides the Dirty White Boys that are not under their complete control.
Some "color" to your commentary. No one does business in low security prisons and medium security prisons as everyone looking to parole and most snitches. The big money are in the true Big Houses: Lewisburg, Marion, Atlanta, Leavanworth, which they dominated. Their reach is as far in the federal system wherever there are white gangs (even DWB) and Surenos (the Hand and Shamrock are one).
Article for you:
SANTA ANA — Two black prison gang members testified Wednesday that the notorious Aryan Brotherhood was too small and weak to attack a rival black gang behind bars and incite a race war that left two inmates dead.The testimony of the witnesses, members of the Crips and Black Guerrilla Family, came in the final days of a sweeping federal racketeering trial against the white supremacist gang.The case, believed to be one of the largest death penalty cases in U.S. history, alleges that imprisoned Aryan Brotherhood ringleaders orchestrated 32 murders and attempted murders over a 30-year period. Of the 40 people originally arrested, up to 16 could face the death penalty in several trials.At the heart of the government’s case is a 1997 race riot at a prison in Lewisburg, Pa., that resulted in the deaths of two members of the DC Blacks prison gang. Prosecutors allege the hits were ordered by way of a secret message sent by two Aryan Brotherhood members currently on trial — Barry “The Baron” Mills and T.D. “The Hulk” Bingham — from another prison.Wednesday, an imprisoned member of the Black Guerrilla Family gang testified that the Aryan Brotherhood was severely outnumbered in the federal prison system by the DC Blacks.Witness James “Doc” Holiday said 10 Aryan Brotherhood members at most were at his prison, while the DC Blacks were “the majority.”Holiday said DC Blacks had a type of violent mentality that didn’t exist among other prison gangs. He said the racial strife was largely instigated by the black gang, with the Aryan Brotherhood defending itself.When tensions started to rise among black and white inmates in 1996 and 1997, Mills tried to ease the problem rather than inflame it, Holiday said.“I know him and I know that he wouldn’t initiate something like that because he knows the consequences,” Holiday said of the racial problems.“Only the young and the foolish and the uninitiated would start something like that in prison,” said Holiday, serving two life terms for drug violations.Earlier in the day, another inmate and member of the Crips testified that the DC Blacks vastly outnumbered the white supremacist gang, which had to act in self-defense.“I care how it comes out because I know these people,” said Mick Daughtery, in prison nearly 30 years on drug convictions. “But I’m not biased.”The government alleges Bingham passed a secret message that read “War with DC Blacks, TD” to Aryan Brotherhood members at the Lewisburg prison in 1997 after racial strife broke out at a prison in Marion, Ill.A series of government witnesses have testified that they helped pass the contents of the message written in invisible ink made from urine.The defense has argued that the message was a warning to Aryan Brotherhood members at other prisons about escalating racial tensions, and that it was misinterpreted by those who received it.Holiday testified that the troubles at Marion began when a member of the DC Blacks assaulted a white inmate with a radio because he wanted to be transferred to another prison. Things escalated, he said, when DC Blacks attacked white inmates in the prison yard.The trial began in mid-March and entered its final days this week. Defense attorneys for Bingham, Mills and another defendant, Edgar “The Snail” Hevle, have rested their cases.The trial was recessed until July 6, when an attorney for the fourth defendant, Christopher Gibson, will begin his defense. Closing arguments are expected to begin July 11.