Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

Post a reply

Confirmation code
Enter the code exactly as it appears. All letters are case insensitive.

BBCode is OFF
Smilies are OFF

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by Don_Peppino » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:43 pm

I think if you take into account, the guys who were made without Commission approval, guys who weren't on FBI radar and the fact that Bonanno had guys in several territories, I could see him commading 250, even 300. Although, I do believe that some were just relatives, high level associates and connected guys from other Families.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by B. » Tue May 25, 2021 10:52 pm

One of the strongest reasons to believe it's him, is on 1/20/65, Ontario Buffalo member Calogero Bordonaro placed a telephone call to Nick Alfano. Bordonaro and Alfano both came from Racalmuto, Agrigento.

The following day, 1/21/65, is when "Bill Loffa" (ph) and Sciacca met with Magaddino. Sounds to me like Bordonaro called his paesan Alfano the day before the meeting to finalize arrangements or otherwise to discuss the business with Magaddino.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Tue May 25, 2021 10:07 pm

B. wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 pm
thekiduknow wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:37 pm
B. wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:03 pm
- On a January 1965 recording where Stefano Magaddino asks for an estimate of the Bonanno family's size, senior Bonanno member "Bill Loffa" (ph) says around 100, while Paul Sciacca quickly follows this up with 182. Was Sciacca correcting "Loffa's" estimate, or was he adding onto it, i.e. they were describing different two factions, therefore when combined the Bonanno family would be around ~282.
Any idea who "Loffa" is? I just briefly looked through the transcript and it doesn't seem he was NY member, with him either being from Tucson or Montreal(two very different places lol), at least on my cursory look.
It's the FBI's summary that suggests "Loffa" (ph) was non-NYC but their summaries sometimes miss context or details. In the transcript, "Loffa" appears to be an elderly NYC Bonanno member with extensive knowledge of their history and interests. I guess his knowledge of Canada and the West Coast confused the agents, but he makes comments that suggest he was involved with the Bonanno family in NYC since the 1920s or early 1930s.

I've always believed it's Nick Alfano. It's not clear if "Bill Loffa" (ph) is a butchered phonetic mishearing of a name (i.e. Asaro becoming "Uase") or if it was even meant as a name at all. The reason the FBI went with "Bill Loffa" (ph) is because he says it a couple of times early on when greeting everyone, but there is no clear sign he is saying a name. It may have been an Italian phrase, etc.

There is one report from around this time that claims Alfano, Sciacca, and DiGregorio were on a three man panel right before DiGregorio was nominated for boss. Beyond the tangents and history lessons from Magaddino, the point of the meeting was for the two Bonanno leaders to get Magaddino's advice and support for nominating DiGregorio. It would make sense the two other panel members would be the ones to contact a top Commission member like Magaddino.

At one point "Loffa" says he'll take the boss position if DiGregorio or nobody else is willing to take it. He's definitely not from the pro-Bonanno faction and we know from the DeCavalcante tapes the pro-Bonanno members didn't trust senior members Angelo Caruso and Nick Alfano. He's not Angelo Caruso, as the three men discuss him on the transcript.

So yeah, my money has always been on Alfano.
Ah, Alfano makes a lot of sense, it probably is him. Good analysis. I know he and Nick Buttafucco visited Montreal in the early 70s, so he must have known members out there. It would make sense he would go with Sciacca to visit Magaddino.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by B. » Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 pm

thekiduknow wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:37 pm
B. wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:03 pm
- On a January 1965 recording where Stefano Magaddino asks for an estimate of the Bonanno family's size, senior Bonanno member "Bill Loffa" (ph) says around 100, while Paul Sciacca quickly follows this up with 182. Was Sciacca correcting "Loffa's" estimate, or was he adding onto it, i.e. they were describing different two factions, therefore when combined the Bonanno family would be around ~282.
Any idea who "Loffa" is? I just briefly looked through the transcript and it doesn't seem he was NY member, with him either being from Tucson or Montreal(two very different places lol), at least on my cursory look.
It's the FBI's summary that suggests "Loffa" (ph) was non-NYC but their summaries sometimes miss context or details. In the transcript, "Loffa" appears to be an elderly NYC Bonanno member with extensive knowledge of their history and interests. I guess his knowledge of Canada and the West Coast confused the agents, but he makes comments that suggest he was involved with the Bonanno family in NYC since the 1920s or early 1930s.

I've always believed it's Nick Alfano. It's not clear if "Bill Loffa" (ph) is a butchered phonetic mishearing of a name (i.e. Asaro becoming "Uase") or if it was even meant as a name at all. The reason the FBI went with "Bill Loffa" (ph) is because he says it a couple of times early on when greeting everyone, but there is no clear sign he is saying a name. It may have been an Italian phrase, etc.

There is one report from around this time that claims Alfano, Sciacca, and DiGregorio were on a three man panel right before DiGregorio was nominated for boss. Beyond the tangents and history lessons from Magaddino, the point of the meeting was for the two Bonanno leaders to get Magaddino's advice and support for nominating DiGregorio. It would make sense the two other panel members would be the ones to contact a top Commission member like Magaddino.

At one point "Loffa" says he'll take the boss position if DiGregorio or nobody else is willing to take it. He's definitely not from the pro-Bonanno faction and we know from the DeCavalcante tapes the pro-Bonanno members didn't trust senior members Angelo Caruso and Nick Alfano. He's not Angelo Caruso, as the three men discuss him on the transcript.

So yeah, my money has always been on Alfano.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Tue May 25, 2021 6:37 pm

B. wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:03 pm
- On a January 1965 recording where Stefano Magaddino asks for an estimate of the Bonanno family's size, senior Bonanno member "Bill Loffa" (ph) says around 100, while Paul Sciacca quickly follows this up with 182. Was Sciacca correcting "Loffa's" estimate, or was he adding onto it, i.e. they were describing different two factions, therefore when combined the Bonanno family would be around ~282.
Any idea who "Loffa" is? I just briefly looked through the transcript and it doesn't seem he was NY member, with him either being from Tucson or Montreal(two very different places lol), at least on my cursory look.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Tue May 25, 2021 10:31 am

Pogo The Clown wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:54 am I'm pretty sure the Morale faction thing was in Bound by Honor. Speaking of Bound by Honor, Bill claims the family had 350 members


Pogo
I went through both books real quick and found that its in both, but depicted in slightly different ways.

In Honor Thy Father, it’s mentioned that by April 1968, when Bill and Morale were both being grand juried, Bill believed that Morale had left the Bonanno group, possibly going to a “third force that was rumored to have splintered off of the DiGregorio and Bonanno units”. Bill had previously started to think, and had told Joe that he believed that Morale had withdrawn his support in November 1966, when they were both serving those 30 days jail time for contempt.

Bill, however, in Bound by Honor says that Joseph had told Bill that Morale had “split off and formed yet another splinter group within the Family around the same time, April 1968. However, in his book Bill writes it as if it was a huge shock that Morale had left Bonanno, rather than in Honor Thy Father where he suspected that Morale had left in November 1966.

In Last Testament, Bill says that Joe gave Morale permission to splinter off in 1968, seemingly the remaining members of the loyalists.

My hunch is that Honor Thy Father is more correct, that Morales had split off in late 1966 and joined the middle between Bonanno and Sciacca when DiGregorio was stepping down.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by Wiseguy » Tue May 25, 2021 10:13 am

Pogo The Clown wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:54 am I'm pretty sure the Morale faction thing was in Bound by Honor. Speaking of Bound by Honor, Bill claims the family had 350 members


Pogo
Sounds like another one of his exaggerations.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by Pogo The Clown » Tue May 25, 2021 9:54 am

I'm pretty sure the Morale faction thing was in Bound by Honor. Speaking of Bound by Honor, Bill claims the family had 350 members


Pogo

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Tue May 25, 2021 8:54 am

motorfab wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 8:47 am
thekiduknow wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 8:40 am
motorfab wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:28 am I didn't know that a third faction had formed during the Banana War. This faction would have been led by Zicarelli ? Do we have more info on that ? Zicarelli didn't have sanctions when the war ended ?
Faction may not be the right word, but Zicarelli seems to have been in the running to replace DiGregorio when he stepped down in early 1967. Even in 1966 there was talk about replacing Zicarelli with DiGregorio, so he had to have some kind of following within the family. For example I believe that there was a report that Armond Pollastrino would follow Zicarelli to whichever side he chooses.

My guess is that Zicarelli was probably seen as the “safe” choice at the time, between Bonanno loyalists headed by Bill and the DiGregorio/Commission side headed by Sciacca. Ultimately, Sciacca was chosen in late June and officially boss, I believe, by October.

There was a mention in one of the books that Johnny Morale might broken away from the Bonanno group and headed a third faction in the family, so the family was definitely fractured into multiple groups, with most members probably falling somewhere in the middle.
Yes I think the Morale thing is told in Honor Thy Father. Anyway, it doesn't really matter where it comes from, what you say makes sense on all points Thank you kid
Right, it was in Honor Thy Father. All the Bonanno books have "honor" in them its hard to keep track sometimes lol. Glad it made sense! You're welcome motorfab, I never get tired of talking about the Bonanno split lol.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Tue May 25, 2021 8:52 am

B. wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:51 pm I'm with you 100%.

I suspect their cap was around 200, which would make sense with 182 members in 1965 if they came close to maxing out in 1957 when the books were closed. However, the Bonannos inducted members when the books were closed, too, including close to ten (on top of the existing ten) in Canada and a couple of guys like Peter Notaro and Patty DeFilippo are believed to have been made then, too. I doubt JB made members in droves during that period, but worth considering that ~20 extra members were made between 1957-1964.

Sciacca was aware of the extra Canadian members and possibly others, as he says as much on the Magaddino tapes, but he may not have included them in his 182 estimate given these inductions were done without Commission approval.
200 definitely makes sense, and if they get a spot taken away from each murdered member it could definitely fall to around 180.

I'd love to try and figure out who the extra members were, at least in New York. I always thought that Hank Perrone was probably made, whether when the books were closed or in the 60s like DeFilippo or Notaro. He was super close to Bill, so much so that he's mentioned by name in Rosalie's book.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by motorfab » Tue May 25, 2021 8:47 am

thekiduknow wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 8:40 am
motorfab wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:28 am I didn't know that a third faction had formed during the Banana War. This faction would have been led by Zicarelli ? Do we have more info on that ? Zicarelli didn't have sanctions when the war ended ?
Faction may not be the right word, but Zicarelli seems to have been in the running to replace DiGregorio when he stepped down in early 1967. Even in 1966 there was talk about replacing Zicarelli with DiGregorio, so he had to have some kind of following within the family. For example I believe that there was a report that Armond Pollastrino would follow Zicarelli to whichever side he chooses.

My guess is that Zicarelli was probably seen as the “safe” choice at the time, between Bonanno loyalists headed by Bill and the DiGregorio/Commission side headed by Sciacca. Ultimately, Sciacca was chosen in late June and officially boss, I believe, by October.

There was a mention in one of the books that Johnny Morale might broken away from the Bonanno group and headed a third faction in the family, so the family was definitely fractured into multiple groups, with most members probably falling somewhere in the middle.
Yes I think the Morale thing is told in Honor Thy Father. Anyway, it doesn't really matter where it comes from, what you say makes sense on all points Thank you kid

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Tue May 25, 2021 8:40 am

motorfab wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:28 am I didn't know that a third faction had formed during the Banana War. This faction would have been led by Zicarelli ? Do we have more info on that ? Zicarelli didn't have sanctions when the war ended ?
Faction may not be the right word, but Zicarelli seems to have been in the running to replace DiGregorio when he stepped down in early 1967. Even in 1966 there was talk about replacing Zicarelli with DiGregorio, so he had to have some kind of following within the family. For example I believe that there was a report that Armond Pollastrino would follow Zicarelli to whichever side he chooses.

My guess is that Zicarelli was probably seen as the “safe” choice at the time, between Bonanno loyalists headed by Bill and the DiGregorio/Commission side headed by Sciacca. Ultimately, Sciacca was chosen in late June and officially boss, I believe, by October.

There was a mention in one of the books that Johnny Morale might broken away from the Bonanno group and headed a third faction in the family, so the family was definitely fractured into multiple groups, with most members probably falling somewhere in the middle.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by motorfab » Tue May 25, 2021 7:28 am

I didn't know that a third faction had formed during the Banana War. This faction would have been led by Zicarelli ? Do we have more info on that ? Zicarelli didn't have sanctions when the war ended ?

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by B. » Mon May 24, 2021 11:51 pm

I'm with you 100%.

I suspect their cap was around 200, which would make sense with 182 members in 1965 if they came close to maxing out in 1957 when the books were closed. However, the Bonannos inducted members when the books were closed, too, including close to ten (on top of the existing ten) in Canada and a couple of guys like Peter Notaro and Patty DeFilippo are believed to have been made then, too. I doubt JB made members in droves during that period, but worth considering that ~20 extra members were made between 1957-1964.

Sciacca was aware of the extra Canadian members and possibly others, as he says as much on the Magaddino tapes, but he may not have included them in his 182 estimate given these inductions were done without Commission approval.

Re: Bonanno family estimates pre-1968

by thekiduknow » Mon May 24, 2021 11:16 pm

I believe that the actual size of the Bonannos was probably closer to 180 than 300 pre-split. I don't think Joseph or Bill were lying necessarily, just believing their own hype so to speak. DeCavalcante maybe assumed they were closer in size to the Gambino or Genovese family when saying that "200 remained with Bonanno".

I haven't found any proof, but I wouldn't be surprised that the June 1967 three-way split numbers between Bill Bonanno, Sciacca and Zicarelli was given by Bill Bonanno. He would be in a good position to know how roughly how many members there were to split and who had how many. That the numbers added up to roughly 175, when Sciacca had the family at 182 two years prior, it's hard to believe an informant heard that on the street and told the FBI.

The Bonanno 1963 chart that CC/HairyKnucles put together has about 168 names, both confirmed and possible members. On LCNBios 1979 chart, I counted 118 confirmed members, 153 if I included possible and Arizona members. About 25 members died (not including murders if they cannot be replaced) from 1970-1976. I'm not sure about how many confirmed Bonanno members died in the late 50s through 60s but off the top of my head LaBruzzo, Notaro, Tartamella, and I'm sure there are more than a few. So their known numbers seem consistent from the early 60s to late 70s.

I could be wrong don't believe that more than 100 members could have passed undetected in the early and mid 60s, especially with the special attention the Bonannos got from the Feds.

Top