"The what ifs"

Post a reply

Confirmation code
Enter the code exactly as it appears. All letters are case insensitive.

BBCode is OFF
Smilies are OFF

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: "The what ifs"

Re: Re:

by B. » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:41 pm

Chris Christie wrote:
phatmatress777 wrote:I never liked Donnie brasco/ pistone he just comes off as such a dry humored wanna be have any of you guys ever listened to the wire taps ok YouTube between him and lefty? He just sounds so Whiney


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
HYE! Myah Namesah Donnie Brazzz COE and Eye NOEEE WizzzzeGuyyyzzaz. DEEZ are sum REcordINGS uvvv ME n DEZZ WIZZZZZEguyAAAAAssss.

Lefty: We had a meet, you fucking asshole and they are pissed.

Brasco: Well, whaddu they know about it!

Lefty: Donny, don't so say what about it... You knowwhat? Get off your high fucking horse and call me later.


I've used that line in life I'll admit! Fucking Lefty should RIP knowing Pacino played his character well, even though he died of cancer in 1992 and wanted no part in the film to begin with.
Holy shit, you just made me look at that conversation in a whole new light. Hahaha

Re:

by Angelo Santino » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:10 pm

phatmatress777 wrote:I never liked Donnie brasco/ pistone he just comes off as such a dry humored wanna be have any of you guys ever listened to the wire taps ok YouTube between him and lefty? He just sounds so Whiney


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
HYE! Myah Namesah Donnie Brazzz COE and Eye NOEEE WizzzzeGuyyyzzaz. DEEZ are sum REcordINGS uvvv ME n DEZZ WIZZZZZEguyAAAAAssss.

Lefty: We had a meet, you fucking asshole and they are pissed.

Brasco: Well, whaddu they know about it!

Lefty: Donny, don't so say what about it... You knowwhat? Get off your high fucking horse and call me later.


I've used that line in life I'll admit! Fucking Lefty should RIP knowing Pacino played his character well, even though he died of cancer in 1992 and wanted no part in the film to begin with.

Re: "The what ifs"

by Angelo Santino » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:10 pm

Agreed on all, B.

And no one can tell me that- what's his name? The Fat Fuck who infiltrated the DePalma crew- No one can tell me he didn't enter the job with dollar signs in his head. Talking about being scared, GTFOH! He probably was writing the book while he was doing his job. Now he does documentaries are how to act like a wiseguy, they film his ample ass going to the produce section, pulling a rubberband off escarole and wrapping it around a set of bills (a 100 with like 75 ones in the back most likely) and saying: See, dis is how ah wiseguya does it."

Pistone and Fat Fuck ain't even trying to hide their "love" of the life. They got paid to be a semi-wiseguy and use that tough guy persona to further their interests post career. Some can argue they took the challenge and deserve to milk it. Each their own.

Re: "The what ifs"

by B. » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:22 am

The biggest thing I take from Brasco is that we really got an objective view of what it means to be a mob associate.

A lot of associates are childhood friends, friends of friends, relatives, and neighbors of made guys, and a lot of these people are dishonest, unintelligent, and otherwise complete liabilities except for the fact that they were raised in that subculture and they revere the mob. Many associates have more going for them, but if you've read about this subject enough you can see that made guys are almost constantly having to stand up for their associates for fucking up and getting into beefs.

Brasco on the other hand did his best to play the role of a criminal, but he also was a very smart guy who knew the right things to say and purposefully avoided doing anything dishonest (by mob standards) or underhanded, plus he earned. He was basically the perfect associate as far as they were concerned. I think that's a big reason why Napolitano wanted to bring him in.

Re:

by B. » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:08 am

Lupara wrote:
B. wrote:I do think he was an FBI agent who went a bit rogue which was becoming a major issue for his supervisors.
Which is what they show in the movie. I've always wondered whether that was artistic license or based on actual truth, especially because Pistone was very involved in the production.
I haven't watched the movie for a while, but I feel like he generally tries to paint this picture that he was disobeying his supervisors so that he could get in deeper and cause more damage to the family and that they wanted to pull him out for his own safety above all else. His safety was a major concern with what was going on in the family no doubt, but after 6 years as an associate who was getting more and more respect, I believe he had started to mold to the lifestyle. Considering how long he was undercover he did relatively little legal damage.

Re: "The what ifs"

by Lupara » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:23 am

B. wrote:I do think he was an FBI agent who went a bit rogue which was becoming a major issue for his supervisors.
Which is what they show in the movie. I've always wondered whether that was artistic license or based on actual truth, especially because Pistone was very involved in the production.

Re: "The what ifs"

by Lupara » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:16 am

Joe Pistone's statement that Nick Rizzuto was capo of Montreal comes from the FBI itself, which listed Nick as capo in the late 80s. The power structure up there and who was really in charge after Cotroni died remains unclear, at least to me. I'm eager to dig into it when I'm able to do so.

Re: "The what ifs"

by Pogo The Clown » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:46 am

You also have to factor in that Ruggiero got things wrong himself (Angelo Bruno getting whacked by NY because he wanted AC all to himself, Frank Balistrieri being the top Boss of the Midwest and Philly/NJ running Baltimore being some examples)and passed that along to Pistone. Granted this was stuff outsde of NY but still.


Pogo

Re: "The what ifs"

by B. » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:00 pm

I have very ambivalent, sometime conflicting thoughts on Brasco. Absolutely great book for both information and entertainment, and I think it was that book that really kickstarted my interest in the Bonannos more than any other NY family. A lot of what he said in that book was later confirmed but I also think some of it is wrong, both because he got slanted information, misinterpreted things, and just did some guesswork. I think it's an accurate viewpoint of what an associate sees of the organization from the outside, though -- they absorb a lot of information, but can't get everything right, which is why even made members can't be trusted 100% when they believe they're telling the truth. Everyone gets things a little bit twisted, no matter who they are. When you throw in the fact that some people deliberately lie, that fucks everything up way more.

A lot of his conversations with Lefty for example show that Lefty tried to communicate some of the details of Cosa Nostra's structure and rules in an indirect way, which I think is common between members and associates. It's a way for members to gossip and pass on info to their buddies without officially breaking the rules. He found other ways of saying things that didn't always say the absolute truth, but more or less gave Pistone the idea. But like the game of telephone, I think Pistone misinterpreted some things. With the whole "Galante as boss" thing, you have to figure that Ruggiero was a soldier in Mike Sabella's crew, which was a key part of the faction that supported Galante as boss. Galante was the guy who made Ruggiero and in his world, Galante was at the top of the chain. Maybe he did know that Rastelli was the official boss and just didn't see the point in explaining it to Pistone since it didn't matter. Or maybe he did think Galante was the boss because he followed whatever Sabella told him and didn't hear much street gossip specifically about "who is in charge".

I've never actually read Pistone's follow-up books, but I'm of the opinion that he greatly enjoyed being a wiseguy and that he didn't just cash in on the whole "sunglasses" act for money, but also so that he could keep the Brasco character going. I think other agents who had been in his position would have been happy to retire and go about their lives out of the spotlight, but he found ways to put himself into "mafia pop culture" again and again... even though the whole "Donnie Brasco" thing from beginning to end caused his family immense distress/grief! I don't have anything to back this up, but reading between the lines I do think he was an FBI agent who went a bit rogue which was becoming a major issue for his supervisors. Naturally they aren't going to say that, as in the end it was great publicity for them and a major insult to Cosa Nostra.

I think it's ridiculous when Pistone has commented on Montreal, especially his more recent testimony up there. What I would love to hear him talk more about is how in the original book he says a member from Montreal came down to New York to support Tony Mirra in his heroin beef against Brasco. How and why would a Montreal member come down to support an unpopular, dangerous guy like Mirra in a beef with an associate in another crew? Who was that member? The only thing I can figure, if it's true, is that Mirra's capo Cesare Bonventre recruited a friend from Montreal, as he was friends with the crew up there. Still, it's a very dangerous game and regardless of the Montreal situation, I do believe that Brasco was causing a lot of controversy in the family due to his status with Napolitano and his ability to earn an carry himself well. I 100% believe that Napolitano wanted to make Brasco, possibly with the longterm goal of putting him in charge of the family's Florida operations. That's just my own theory, nothing more.

Re: "The what ifs"

by phatmatress777 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:41 pm

I never liked Donnie brasco/ pistone he just comes off as such a dry humored wanna be have any of you guys ever listened to the wire taps ok YouTube between him and lefty? He just sounds so Whiney


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: "The what ifs"

by Angelo Santino » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:10 pm

B. wrote:
Lupara wrote:
B. wrote:It definitely hurt Sonny Black and his crew. He would have gone to prison if he hadn't been killed, and though it seems that his murder had as much to do with the various power plays going on in the family, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill him. If not for Brasco, he very well could have been the next boss instead of Massino.
Do you believe Napolitano was closer to Rastelli than Massino? It was Massino who organized the killing of the three rebellious capos and secured power for Rastelli...
I don't know enough to compare their relationships to Rastelli, but I do know that Napolitano had a history with Rastelli that went back farther than most of the books/movies seem to suggest. There was a longstanding loyalty and in many ways Napolitano was more of a "senior" figure in the family even though he was only made a short time before Massino and they had been capos for the same amount of time.

Massino and Napolitano were definitely equal players in the fight against the other faction and both participated in the murder to secure Rastelli's spot.
Most of the so-called factual narration came from Pistone, whose Donnie Brasco book in the 1980's differed greatly with his more recent works like Unfinished Business. Personally I tend to believe Donnie Brasco more than his recent stuff which seems "updated" so he could cash in on the Sopranos wave. For god sakes he appeared in sunglasses and a leather jacket to meet up in a NY street to discuss whether Jackie Jr was gonna get whacked for robbing Ralph Ciffaretto's card game at the end of S3. Why this matters is because his story changes from book to book, certain members are given new ranks and further info is expanded upon like Nick Rizzuto being capo of Montreal, something a low level associate would not be privy to in the 70's. Napolitano's role has changed from Pistone's viewpoint to looking for the consig position to being unofficially over everyone (after the 3 capo murders) to being officially acting boss. I mean, either you know or you don't know. And maybe Pistone's inflating his personal info on positions. No doubt he was involved in crimes with these guys, but the 70's was still a hush hush time about LCN. If Sonny Black was a guy to hand over his jewellry and go to his death over violating mob protocol, why would he violate mob protocol by telling private LCN information to an associate? I'm sure things spilled out in conversation but what I don't think is that Pistone could have asked him about the family history, who all the captains were or anything else that didn't relate to current things like Mirra starting a sit over him. It was a need to know basis more so than today is all I'm saying and Pistone's details keep changing. He's a source but he's allowed Hollywood to taint his honesty. At the height of the Sopranos he even suggested he was ready to kill Sonny Red's kid. Argue the validity of that, it's still starkly different from his DB days and testifying at the 25TAV hearings as "just an FBI agent doing my job." Quite frankly I think he's cashed in and historic validity is secondary to the story. At its basic: Brasco was under Lefty who was under Black, but in my opinion from what I've seen associates are rarely given the honest inside info. And he quotes Ruggierio as quoting Galante to be the boss. It took 20 years for higher informants (Vitale, actual made members) to dispute this fact. And back before he did it, Pistone was quoted (because he had nothing else to do) on record as saying "Massino is the last of the oldtimers. He'll never flip." I'm sorry but he's the mob's Dick Morris: relevant in his time, irrelevant today in terms of authenticity.

Re: "The what ifs"

by B. » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:47 pm

Lupara wrote:
B. wrote:It definitely hurt Sonny Black and his crew. He would have gone to prison if he hadn't been killed, and though it seems that his murder had as much to do with the various power plays going on in the family, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill him. If not for Brasco, he very well could have been the next boss instead of Massino.
Do you believe Napolitano was closer to Rastelli than Massino? It was Massino who organized the killing of the three rebellious capos and secured power for Rastelli...
I don't know enough to compare their relationships to Rastelli, but I do know that Napolitano had a history with Rastelli that went back farther than most of the books/movies seem to suggest. There was a longstanding loyalty and in many ways Napolitano was more of a "senior" figure in the family even though he was only made a short time before Massino and they had been capos for the same amount of time.

Massino and Napolitano were definitely equal players in the fight against the other faction and both participated in the murder to secure Rastelli's spot.

Re: "The what ifs"

by Snakes » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:33 am

More "what ifs?":

If Turk Torello didn't die of cancer in '78?
Aiuppa eventually retires and Cerone takes over as boss with Turk as #2. Probably gets caught up in Strawman and sent to prison. Becomes boss upon release and possibly indicted in Family Secrets (Haggerty murder). It would be interesting to see if he would have been indicted as there was no corroborating evidence placing him at the scene of Haggerty's murder other than Nick's testimony, a la DiFronzo and Marino at the Spilotros' murders.

If Joe Ferriola didn't die of cancer in '89?
He gets indicted in the big Rocky Infelise case and goes to prison for life.

Re: "The what ifs"

by Pogo The Clown » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:20 am

Correct HK. According to Pistone it was Lefty (who I believe was Acting Capo by then) who told him that Sonny was trying to become the new Consiglieri. If the Brasco thing hadn't gone down he probably would have gotten it when Rastelli got out. Massino would have probably gotten the UderBoss slot as he ended up getting. Or it could have been the other way around. But them two along with Rastelli would have been the administration in my view.


Pogo

Re: "The what ifs"

by HairyKnuckles » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:14 am

I don´t think you´re way off Dix.

Already while Pistone was undercover, tensions started to brew between Sonny Black and Massino. It´s mentioned in the Brasco book, (somewhere at the end). It seems to me that the both of them jockeyd for position and competed for Rastelli´s attention. Sonny Black eyed the position of Consigliere in the Family, at least that´s what Pistone said. But Sonny´s ambitions were enough to make Massino feel insecure about one day taking over from Rastelli. I agree with B, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill Sonny Black.

Top