NickleCity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:39 amWiseguy, I may be wrong but it appears you interject your opinion and framework for understanding the mob and expect no one to debate you. Those who argue with you in these threads often don’t accept some of your premises or conclusions. IMHO if you bring your premises and conclusions you are starting the debate argument and people can and should be allowed to argue their point of view against yours.
I never said they couldn't. In fact, it's usually others basically telling me to shut up and stop arguing my points in these debates. Or to make my point and then move on without any follow up. While I can obviously debate until hell freezes over, I'm not one to stifle discussion.
pat_marcy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 6:55 am
So we have organised crime in buffalo being committed by Italians. A reputed boss, an underboss recorded in a wiretap saying he’s been made underboss and beat 30 guys. We have others on trial who have told people that they are made and also other crimes being committed by people with historic ties to made members. I’m sure there’s more to it but from that I’d say any reasonable person could take from that, that there’s a functioning family in the city. It’s hardly a big jump to go from all that to there being a functioning family.
That aside if people want to speculate that there’s a family and discuss rumours and whatnot then that’s down to them. Absolutely no harm to anyone on this site if people choose to do that.
I like what nicklecity posts as I’m sure others do and I’m big enough and ugly enough to decide myself whether I want to believe it or come to the same conclusions he has.
Did you miss the part where there is good reason to be skeptical of Violi's "30 guys" comment or are you just choosing to ignore it?
Did you miss the part where several examples of other defunct families were given, matching much of the same criteria that you mentioned above, or are just choosing to ignore it?
scott22 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 8:16 am
Wiseguy ,
So Mike Sarno didn’t make a bunch of his guys and those guys don’t have the power now out of Cicero? Is that your argument against my Chicago reporting ?
I don't believe for a minute that Sarno made dozens of guys like you claim. The steady decline of Outfit membership is well documented. It was at 30 made guys at most around the time of Family Secrets, many of whom have died since then, and its absurd to think they nearly doubled that at all, let alone in a few years time. You're doing with Chicago what you've done with Detroit for years.
And you are saying the South Side crew didn’t reestablish outfit rackets in NW Indiana?
Not only has the South Side crew not really shown much activity even within its Chicago territory for quite a while now, I think it's becoming questionable how much of that crew is even left and hasn't (or won't) merge with Cicero the way it seems Elmwood Park has (or will) merge with Grand Avenue. So the idea that they're bucking the trend and expanding back into NW Indiana seems classic Burnstein.
Just trying to be clear . Tell me your thoughts on Louie Rainone please ? So he’s not the leader of this Sarno bunch ? Or I conjured him out of thin air ?
My guess is you've done what you've done in the past - take a basic element of truth and give it the Burnstein treatment. The Rainones are hardly unknown within those circles but, if Louis Rainone (which there's really no evidence is even made) is running the crew for Sarno, that speaks volumes. Bottomline, it's been evident to me for a long time that you will just plug guys into certain spots in order to flesh out a family.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 11:09 amSecond: I never called Schratwieser that and I’m almost certain Wiseguy never has either. Nor have I questioned his reporting. So your point is moot.
Pogo
I don't recall saying much of anything about Schratweiser except maybe he needs to lay off the Peppermint Schnapps. His face gets more red every time I see him.
[quote=NickleCity post_id=284595 time=1727609959 user_id=5614]Wiseguy, I may be wrong but it appears you interject your opinion and framework for understanding the mob and expect no one to debate you. Those who argue with you in these threads often don’t accept some of your premises or conclusions. IMHO if you bring your premises and conclusions you are starting the debate argument and people can and should be allowed to argue their point of view against yours.
[/quote]
I never said they couldn't. In fact, it's usually others basically telling me to shut up and stop arguing my points in these debates. Or to make my point and then move on without any follow up. While I can obviously debate until hell freezes over, I'm not one to stifle discussion.
[quote=pat_marcy post_id=284597 time=1727618147 user_id=8498]
So we have organised crime in buffalo being committed by Italians. A reputed boss, an underboss recorded in a wiretap saying he’s been made underboss and beat 30 guys. We have others on trial who have told people that they are made and also other crimes being committed by people with historic ties to made members. I’m sure there’s more to it but from that I’d say any reasonable person could take from that, that there’s a functioning family in the city. It’s hardly a big jump to go from all that to there being a functioning family.
That aside if people want to speculate that there’s a family and discuss rumours and whatnot then that’s down to them. Absolutely no harm to anyone on this site if people choose to do that.
I like what nicklecity posts as I’m sure others do and I’m big enough and ugly enough to decide myself whether I want to believe it or come to the same conclusions he has.
[/quote]
Did you miss the part where there is good reason to be skeptical of Violi's "30 guys" comment or are you just choosing to ignore it?
Did you miss the part where several examples of other defunct families were given, matching much of the same criteria that you mentioned above, or are just choosing to ignore it?
[quote=scott22 post_id=284598 time=1727622962 user_id=147]
Wiseguy ,
So Mike Sarno didn’t make a bunch of his guys and those guys don’t have the power now out of Cicero? Is that your argument against my Chicago reporting ?[/quote]
I don't believe for a minute that Sarno made dozens of guys like you claim. The steady decline of Outfit membership is well documented. It was at 30 made guys at most around the time of Family Secrets, many of whom have died since then, and its absurd to think they nearly doubled that at all, let alone in a few years time. You're doing with Chicago what you've done with Detroit for years.
[quote]And you are saying the South Side crew didn’t reestablish outfit rackets in NW Indiana?[/quote]
Not only has the South Side crew not really shown much activity even within its Chicago territory for quite a while now, I think it's becoming questionable how much of that crew is even left and hasn't (or won't) merge with Cicero the way it seems Elmwood Park has (or will) merge with Grand Avenue. So the idea that they're bucking the trend and expanding back into NW Indiana seems classic Burnstein.
[quote]Just trying to be clear . Tell me your thoughts on Louie Rainone please ? So he’s not the leader of this Sarno bunch ? Or I conjured him out of thin air ?[/quote]
My guess is you've done what you've done in the past - take a basic element of truth and give it the Burnstein treatment. The Rainones are hardly unknown within those circles but, if Louis Rainone (which there's really no evidence is even made) is running the crew for Sarno, that speaks volumes. Bottomline, it's been evident to me for a long time that you will just plug guys into certain spots in order to flesh out a family.
[quote="Pogo The Clown" post_id=284611 time=1727633365 user_id=53]Second: I never called Schratwieser that and I’m almost certain Wiseguy never has either. Nor have I questioned his reporting. So your point is moot.
Pogo
[/quote]
I don't recall saying much of anything about Schratweiser except maybe he needs to lay off the Peppermint Schnapps. His face gets more red every time I see him.