THE BLACK HAND FORUM

B. wrote:I'm not sure where the idea comes from that by being underboss, you lose all previous loyalties. Often underbosses are chosen because they have the respect of not just the crew they came from, but other captains/crews (and families) as well. Sometimes peace within the family also depends on the boss appointing someone from a rival faction as the underboss. I'd say "stooge" underbosses have generally been the exception in the bigger families.

Agreed. Look at some under bosses recently like crea and cali those guys got as much or more juice than anyone in their families

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that by being underboss, you lose all previous loyalties. Often underbosses are chosen because they have the respect of not just the crew they came from, but other captains/crews (and families) as well. Sometimes peace within the family also depends on the boss appointing someone from a rival faction as the underboss. I'd say "stooge" underbosses have generally been the exception in the bigger families.

From what I have seen it seems the UB is usually tasked with handling rackets that are shared with other families or multiple crews like what Antillar said about Cleveland and Chicago. Also it seems as if he gets a certain taste of what comes into the administration.

About being insulated if the UB gets pinched along with the boss the boss will hold hos stripes and put in an acting boss but the UB, especially if he gets 10-20 years will lose his rank immediately since a UB in prison is of no use. In the 90's and 2000's you saw a lot of acting bosses and official UB's.

By being underboss, depending on the Family, you can be the operating boss if the actual boss steps back, or the manager who others have to get through before they can reach the boss. There's also additional lines of income. When Angelo Lonardo became the UB he suddenly had access to the Las Vegas skim.It probably operated like that in Chicago too, that the top people got a piece of the skim as well as international gambling income. In Los Angeles when Frank Desimone was boss, he became paranoid and didn't want contact with anyone except his UB, so Nick Licata was running the Family.

brianwellbrock wrote:We know the underboss is the second in command but I would also say it may not be a promising career.

Look at the differences between Sal Vitale and Chuckie Merlinos roles as underbosses. Also as u.b. you dont have a crew and while you can pull rank on a skipper they can very easily go over you and have a boss correct you. While at the same time the captains have dozens of members and associates around them you dont have anybody unless you have some soliders under you. I would like to start a discussion on different u.b.'s and compare their power and roles. Some were money makers some just spoke for the boss and just got a cut of certain joint rackets with other families while some had whole entire cities to themselves.idk Im just bored and have been stuck on this topic all day.

If you don't have anyone under you then you are more insulated then a capo who have soldiers and associates that can expose them to LE. Less people to worry about flipping on you the better in my book. Collect envelopes lay low meet with a select few people. Other than that you don't exist...

I don't see how someone would think that being under boss is a dead end job. Money flows up and when your close to the top well.... 2 + 2 =4


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Couldn't you consider the Bergin crew to be under Dellacroce? I know there was skipper's named for that crew but it seems they were possibly a direct type of crew for Dellacroce to use?

I would say the same for Jerry Angiulo in the North End of Boston. For a long time it seems he used Larry Zannino and his crew as Angiulo's personal crew until he went away to prison (Angiulo that is).

But I understand your question and neither of those I mentioned were considered under their certain underboss but it seems they worked more directly for the UB than they did for the boss himself in my opinion.

Unless the UB keeps his power base close to him if not direct than he is really between a rock and a hard place. Today it seems their is more use of a panel or a street boss that acts instead of the UB. I believe the Genovese started this when Vito when to prison where you had an acting boss and a UB but also a panel that was made up of captains. A nice tidy clear structure is not what you want these days and Im sure the families arent losing sleep if people like us cant figure it out because the feds seem to flop sometimes. Massino was the last one to have a clear structure but even than he shelved his UB and had a panel in place. Times are a changing.

I guess in todays mob their has to be a guy on the street with 100 percent power which is where the acting or street boss comes in while their could be a UB who is second in command on the streets but third to the official boss who is in prison or taking a step back.

I think that just as with being named consigliere, the underboss will be able to keep command of his own crew. The underboss is the boss' right-hand man or representative. He has the power to oversee induction ceremonies, although I think capos can be given that authority as well in some circumstances.

Phil Leonetti was another Philly UnderBoss who had an entire crew of Soldiers (his old crew) direct with him.


Pogo

Traditionally the underboss seems to have been what we now call "street boss" or "front boss". Over time it seems to have become more of a political position where guys are appointed to show respect to certain factions who may not be 100% supportive of the boss, but originally I think it was purely functional... having someone who can represent the boss closer to the street level. Some of us believe that the confusion with Gigante/Salerno is because Salerno was the official underboss but had the authority of a "street boss", which is how the position was intended before prison sentences, increased factionalism, and "smoke and mirrors" forced the mob to add more layers to the leadership.

Underbosses can have crews with them. I'm not sure about NY, but in Philly Marco Reginelli had a pretty big crew of soldiers reporting direct to him and he was the unofficial #1 in the family. I am pretty sure some NY underbosses have had soldiers direct with them, too, just not an entire crew.

What interests me is how the position operates at the boss's discretion... he has full authority to promote/demote the underboss, unlike consigliere (at least the way it used to work). You have someone like Anastasia who had a number of underbosses during the short time he was boss, then you have the other bosses from that era who mostly kept the same underboss for decades until retirement/death. The consigliere position has changed the most over the years, to the point where now it is just another rung on the leadership ladder whereas it used to be something completely different.

Maybe be the most unusual Under Boss situation existed in Pittsburgh with Michael Genovese and Jo Jo Pecora. Had Jo Jo not gone to prison, most say he was John LaRocca's choice to succeed him as Boss. When Joe returned from prison he was immediately named as Under-Boss although he held that position as soon as Michael was upped to Boss. Unfortunately Jo Jo didn't live a long life, however both he and Micheal pretty much enjoyed to profits of being Boss while he lived. I've never heard of another circumstance similar to this.

We know the underboss is the second in command but I would also say it may not be a promising career.

Look at the differences between Sal Vitale and Chuckie Merlinos roles as underbosses. Also as u.b. you dont have a crew and while you can pull rank on a skipper they can very easily go over you and have a boss correct you. While at the same time the captains have dozens of members and associates around them you dont have anybody unless you have some soliders under you. I would like to start a discussion on different u.b.'s and compare their power and roles. Some were money makers some just spoke for the boss and just got a cut of certain joint rackets with other families while some had whole entire cities to themselves.idk Im just bored and have been stuck on this topic all day.