THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Makelaiusiwk** » Sat Jul 29, 2023 7:20 am

Interesting reas

by B. » Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:00 pm

As D'Aquila's consigliere and stand-in as national capo, Traina was likely one of the decision-makers who participated in the inclusion of Calabrians into the mafia. Could be that Traina went along with it but in his heart didn't see non-Sicilians as true mafiosi.

With the Lombardozzis, he at least knew they were non-Sicilian but his answer is strange because it was so unnecessary. He could have told them he didn't know anything about the mafia, denied knowing anything about it, but he let it slip that a member's father couldn't be made because he was "Calabrese". Could well be that he was ineligible early on and was simply never made after non-Sicilians were allowed in, like you said. Seems like the same might have happened with Carmine Franzese.

Other possibility is Traina was using "Calabrese" in the pejorative to refer to people who are hard-headed or stubborn, i.e. he couldn't be a member because of his temperment. Magaddino used Calabrese that way on his tapes but I think it's more likely Traina was referring to their ethnicity and got it wrong, but beyond that may have revealed something about his attitude even later in life. The Traina decina appears to be 100% Sicilian from what's known about it.

by **Antiliar** » Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:10 pm

B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:49 pm Yep, same with Lombardozzi. This is where Giuseppe Traina said Carmine's father Camillo Lombardozzi couldn't be a member because he was Calabrian:

I wonder if Traina was thinking of an earlier time before they were allowed. It's possible that Lombardozzi was discussed as a potential member in the 1910s and by the 1920s, when other Calabrians such as Anastasia were allowed in, he was no longer interested. Who knows?

by B. » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:49 pm

Yep, same with Lombardozzi. This is where Giuseppe Traina said Carmine's father Camillo Lombardozzi couldn't be a member because he was Calabrian:

by **Angelo Santino** » Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:59 pm

I'm the one that discovered Caponigro wasnt Calabrese. Just putting that out there.

by B. » Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:43 am

An error in the original post is where I called Tony Caponigro a Calabrian. This was long assumed and some sources even indicated it (Fresolone said Caponigro was backed as consigliere by the Calabrians) but he was apparently of Campania stock.

Another detail confirmed since the original post is that Chicago had a consiglio and therefore a group of consiglieri likely headed by a chairman / secretary who was akin to official consigliere or "capo consigliere" (the term was used not just for the capo dei capi but also in Cleveland as Stroccos indicated -- I've since seen the same report Stroccos mentioned where Argento is called "chief counselor").

Stefano Zoccoli was the secretary / chief consigliere in San Jose and didn't get discussed earlier in this thread but he and another consigliere served as dual acting bosses when Cerrito was out of town ala Ricca / Accardo and Zoccoli had the power to meet directly with the Commission to remove his boss from power.

by **Little_Al1991** » Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:38 am

John Pennisi on the Consigliere position

"I wouldn't say it was an olive branch." Rather, he said, it was because DeSimone was a "good guy, even tempered, with a lot on the ball. They picked a guy who deserves it." DeSimone also has the qualities a good consiglieri needs. A consiglieri is the one who handles disputes, including internal family disputes and larger problems with other crime families.

"The consiglieri can't be a hothead. He should actually be like Tom Hagen," the fictional character in Mario Puzo's 1969 The Godfather novel and the later film, Pennisi said.

At the same time, Pennisi isn't certain that DeSimone's elevation to consiglieri will stand the test of time. (Not sure what that was supposed to mean)

by B. » Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:22 am

Bump.

by B. » Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:39 pm

Consigliere definitely existed before Maranzano in both the US and Sicily. One reason I believe it doesn't come up much in early source material is because it wasn't part of the "crime family" chain-of-command. While early LE and the media were still in the dark even on positions like boss / underboss, they could still infer when someone was the top leader or "second-in-command" of underworld operations. A position like consigliere would have required a true insider to explain who held that role and what it entailed, as it isn't obvious to an outsider and even today followers of this subject are still confused by the role.

Along the lines of what you said about Bill Bonanno, Joe Massino said the consigliere was considered the number two position in the Bonannos circa mid-1980s. Rastelli told Massino he was being promoted to "number three" when he became underboss.

by **Boatdrinks** » Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:25 am

If memory serves me correctly, Bill Bonanno in his 'Last Testament' book, goes into great detail about the consigliere and the other roles and structures of the administrations of the Families. Bill talked about a number 1, 2, and 3, but said that in the Bonanno Family, the consigliere was the number two position. This was a serious figure. However, he also said that this did not apply in some of the other families.
Historically, in most Now York Families, the consigliere position, seems to be much of a lesser position. A clear number three, that is well below the importance of the underboss, the number two.
Joe Bonanno, in the history he gives us in his autobiography, concentrates most of his attention on the bosses and underbosses. He does not concentrate on the role of consigliere. Either, because he does not think it important enough, or that he does not want to explore it more for his own reasons. He may not have wanted to dwell on a position that it seemed a problem to fill in the earliest years. Joe does not mention the consigliere in the early years, only going into detail in later years when his son Bill got the job.
There do seem to be some differences between Bill and Joe Bonanno in how they view the structure of their Family and that of the other Families.
In the fictitious 'Prizzi's Honour' book and film, old Don Corrado Prizzi named the new boss of the Family. Of course, in reality, it was Corrado who was the boss. He was merely naming an acting-boss. Perhaps this is the 'Chicago model' of boss. You retire from the active running of the Family, and go and live in Miami. Of course, being boss, you are consulted about all the major decisions, but the day-to-day running of the Family is left to the acting-boss underling. One major power retained, is to decide when to replace the acting-boss.
The history and role of the consigliere is fascinating, and has been much studied. This is what drew me to this thread. In the past, I have also looked at the history of the role of the consigliere. I do not believe this position existed, as we know it now, prior to the death of Salvatore Maranzano, the last boss of all the bosses.

by B. » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:08 am

Charlie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:35 am - Bill Bonanno, The Last Testament of Bill Bonanno:

“The consigliere was like a father confessor: the members could confide in him without fear that confidences would be revealed that might harm them. The consigliere would then frame the issues to the rappresentante in the way he believed most effective and efficient. The consigliere was also expected to step in to assume temporary leadership of a Family if the rappresentante could no longer serve.
Consigliere is an extremely powerful position, because he serves as a receptacle of information. He could manipulate a group of people within the Family, for good or bad. One of the serious functions of a consigliere was to protect the interests of the soldiers, and towards this end he was responsible for maintaining a Family's war chest."

Great find.

by **Charlie** » Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:35 am

- Bill Bonanno, The Last Testament of Bill Bonanno:

“The consigliere was like a father confessor: the members could confide in him without fear that confidences would be revealed that might harm them. The consigliere would then frame the issues to the rappresentante in the way he believed most effective and efficient. The consigliere was also expected to step in to assume temporary leadership of a Family if the rappresentante could no longer serve.
Consigliere is an extremely powerful position, because he serves as a receptacle of information. He could manipulate a group of people within the Family, for good or bad. One of the serious functions of a consigliere was to protect the interests of the soldiers, and towards this end he was responsible for maintaining a Family's war chest."

by **Angelo Santino** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:26 pm Not sure what's up with the Waugh book. He did a lot of research into real people and events, but the way he assigns ranks and talks about other organizational details from the early 1900s seems like guesswork stated as fact. There is one part where he says two guys were inducted into the Detroit mafia in summer 1907 and another guy was promoted as captain over them, but if you check the citation there's no evidence given. Not trying to call the guy out, but I have a hard time taking some of that info about the early 1900s as fact, so hard to say whether there were any patterns that played out in the hierarchy. If he does have obscure sources that say who the boss, consigliere, and captains were that early on, well I'd genuinely love to see them because that'd be an amazing find.

The Sicilian info you read could come from Calderone. He talks about the consiglio very closely to what you described.

Waugh got some of that information via Scott which I provided from the SS and, not saying its wrong, but he made some leaps that I wouldn't feel comfortable making.

by B. » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:26 pm

Not sure what's up with the Waugh book. He did a lot of research into real people and events, but the way he assigns ranks and talks about other organizational details from the early 1900s seems like guesswork stated as fact. There is one part where he says two guys were inducted into the Detroit mafia in summer 1907 and another guy was promoted as captain over them, but if you check the citation there's no evidence given. Not trying to call the guy out, but I have a hard time taking some of that info about the early 1900s as fact, so hard to say whether there were any patterns that played out in the hierarchy. If he does have obscure sources that say who the boss, consigliere, and captains were that early on, well I'd genuinely love to see them because that'd be an amazing find.

The Sicilian info you read could come from Calderone. He talks about the consiglio very closely to what you described.

by **PolackTony** » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:21 am - Frank Bompensiero, 1967 FBI informant report:

“Moceri and La Salle also indicated LCN boss Joe Zerilli of Detroit is considering retiring from active leadership. That Mike Polizzi, son-in-law of John Priziola, would take over Joe Zerilli’s job as Detroit LCN Family Boss ‘with a seat on the Commission’, that Zerilli would become a consigliere of power.

What’s interesting here is if Bompensiero’s info had panned out to be correct, it appears that there would’ve been some precedent for such a move deeper in Detroit’s history. In Vìnnitta, Waugh has Agostino Vitale as capofamiglia at 1901, and then years later as consigliere. This suggests that in the early mafia there may have been a model for consigliere as a former rappresentante (semi-retired boss/elder statesman), presumably with the attendant prestige and weight in organizational affairs. This also may point to the “Council” Consiglieri/elder statesmen that we see in families like Tampa, among others. Whether or not such individuals held a formal “Consigliere” position as outlined in this thread, I would imagine that they were held to embody the interests of the family and its membership in disputes and policy/protocol decisions.

On another note, I was reading some Italian material on Sicilian CN recently. It was claimed here that the capofamiglia appointed not just the sottocapo, but also the Consiglieri, which could be anywhere from 1 to 3 men (it stated that 3 specifically was the upper limit). It’s unclear where the info was originally sourced from, or what specific time period that it pertained to (the later 20th century, I suppose, given that it also mentions Mandamenti). Criteria for and responsibilities of the Consiglieri were not discussed. Is there other evidence of the Consigliere being an appointed position in Sicily, unlike the elected position that we see in at least some US families? Little info seems available on the specifics of the Consigliere position in Sicily, past or present. I’m aware that the SanGiorgi report mentioned the Consigliere, but was any other detail provided apart from it being an advisory role to the rappresentante?

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