THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by B. » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:27 am

Yep, I would agree that my take on drugs largely follows the same logic, though I wouldn't say they are "perfectly fine". I have used drugs pretty extensively in my life and been around them, I know how both sides of it work for better and worse. My philosophy is the same with just about any "vice".

by **Wiseguy** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:33 pm

Five Felonies wrote:it seems like the uk has done a decent job centralizing the gambling over there, at least that's the impression i've gotten. granted, i don't live there so maybe i'm wrong but whenever i watch a ufc broadcast on a british tv station they have a seemingly endless amount of gambling commercials! curious as to the extent of underworld gambling over there in the present day as opposed to a few decades ago during what i guess would be considered the heyday of traditional british firms, i'd imagine it's much less now. this is the direction i believe we're headed over here as well, gradually less and less illegal bets as younger people grow up with an ever increasing amount of ways to legally place a wager along with a continually weakening lcn.

I can't speak for Britain but sports betting has remained largely illegal across the board here in the US (with only a few exceptions) and mob-run bookmaking doesn't seem to have slown down at all. It's perhaps the one racket where, not only has it not become passe despite various forms of legal gambling - state lotto, state casinos, Indian casinos, gambling boats, race tracks, Web cafes, Internet gambling sites, indy poker games, office pools, etc - but the mob has largely retained it's dominance in the racket, being still the biggest player wherever there is still a viable mob family. One can see the effects of legal gambling on other mob gambling operations - numbers, video poker machines, card/casino games - but not on sports betting.

by **Five Felonies** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:40 pm

sonny, it's pretty easy to read between the lines and know that "if not them than somebody else" isn't the only justification being used to support the idea that gambling isn't nearly as serious as other crimes.

it seems like the uk has done a decent job centralizing the gambling over there, at least that's the impression i've gotten. granted, i don't live there so maybe i'm wrong but whenever i watch a ufc broadcast on a british tv station they have a seemingly endless amount of gambling commercials! curious as to the extent of underworld gambling over there in the present day as opposed to a few decades ago during what i guess would be considered the heyday of traditional british firms, i'd imagine it's much less now. this is the direction i believe we're headed over here as well, gradually less and less illegal bets as younger people grow up with an ever increasing amount of ways to legally place a wager along with a continually weakening lcn.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:14 pm

Five Felonies wrote:
SonnyBlackstein wrote:@B. So drugs are perfectly fine according to your 'take it before someone else does' logic?
Heroin? Meth? I mean the clients are just coming to you, someone else will service them if you don't right?
weak strawman sonny. gambling was the issue in question, not drugs.

I'm sorry FF that's not true.

B sites the argument of taking something before someone else does and cites gambling as an example.

So I was arguing the point. Not the example. Please re read his statement.

by **Five Felonies** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:01 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote:@B. So drugs are perfectly fine according to your 'take it before someone else does' logic?
Heroin? Meth? I mean the clients are just coming to you, someone else will service them if you don't right?

weak strawman sonny. gambling was the issue in question, not drugs.

i never really understood the appeal of gambling aside from a casual interest, but i guess that's partly because i don't follow sports aside from boxing/mma. idk, i've bet on a few fights when i was in vegas and it did make things a bit more fun, but at the same time i've seen friends seemingly take the fun out of just being a fan when money is involved. scratch-offs are alot of fun though, no way around that!

by **Lupara** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:18 pm

Seems like we touched a sensative subject...

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:30 am

+1 Wiseguy.

@B. So drugs are perfectly fine according to your 'take it before someone else does' logic?
Heroin? Meth? I mean the clients are just coming to you, someone else will service them if you don't right?

peolle who coach arguments in black and white are lawyers. The reality is grey.

by **Wiseguy** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:24 pm

Five Felonies wrote:the only issue i have with mob controlled gambling/loans is the proceeds being used to further the criminal organization as a whole where other more serious crimes are committed.

And that's the main thing. You cant separate illegal gambling from the criminal organizations that run it. Especially the LCN where gambling is their lifeblood. It fuels everything, directly or indirectly, the mob does be it loansharking, extortion, forcing their way into legitimate businesses, assault, murder, etc. Harmless vice my ass. Only a mob apologists or an ignorant buffoon would claim that.

by **Five Felonies** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:08 pm

B. wrote:For example... gambling is everywhere and it always has been, so why should someone not take advantage of that. I don't have any problem with guys organizing a gambling operation or giving loans.

the only issue i have with mob controlled gambling/loans is the proceeds being used to further the criminal organization as a whole where other more serious crimes are committed. other than that, people should be free to wager there own money as they see fit. i never liked the logic of using the most severe cases of degenerate gamblers as justification for it being banned entirely as the vast overwhelming majority of people are able to keep it together, similar in so many ways to other things that people wish were banned, be it alcohol, guns or a thousand other things that rub the morality of some the wrong way.

by B. » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:04 am

I respect anyone who does what they can to help the people around them, be they family, friends, or neighbors. If a mobster does that, then it's an admirable quality as long as he's not taking from someone else to do it. And there is a big difference between taking from someone vs. taking something before someone else takes it.

For example... gambling is everywhere and it always has been, so why should someone not take advantage of that. I don't have any problem with guys organizing a gambling operation or giving loans. One of the arguments always used against those types of crimes is that they use violence, but in both cases it is the "victim" who willingly gets involved and most bookies/shylocks don't want to have to use violence unless it's completely necessary, and even then some of them will just blacklist a guy for not paying.

Starting a gambling/loan operation to me is "taking something before someone else takes it". The problem I have with guys in the mob is that they are often involved in a lot more than that, and it's the stealing, intimidation, and entitlement that makes them scumbags.

by **123JoeSchmo** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:42 am

rayray wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:The only way someone could admire mob guys is if they really believe and buy into that fantasy. And you would have to be totally delusional or just plain ignorant of the real life mob to believe that. That's one thing I've always liked about Scorseses Goodfellas and Casino. Sure, they live high early on but it all comes crashing down at the end. Eventually the devil gets his due.

Nah, Catholics go to confession and all is right in the world again, all is forgiven.

Protestants just talk to the big man upstairs and we're good haha. Although I haven't heard of any criminal organizations synonymous with Lutheranism or Presbyterianism

I doubt mob guys are terribly religious but I imagine some are traditional with it. I hate to use a TV reference, but similar to Tony Soprano. Doesn't bother with the Church but still wants his kids brought up that way and he even calls himself Catholic more than once.

by **Doobeez** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:43 am

rayray wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:The only way someone could admire mob guys is if they really believe and buy into that fantasy. And you would have to be totally delusional or just plain ignorant of the real life mob to believe that. That's one thing I've always liked about Scorseses Goodfellas and Casino. Sure, they live high early on but it all comes crashing down at the end. Eventually the devil gets his due.

Nah, Catholics go to confession and all is right in the world again, all is forgiven.

5 Hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers for a murder rap? That's not bad..

by **Rocco** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:14 pm

Pete wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:
Pete wrote:Of course pogo has to jump in for his butt buddy. let's all relax we should be able to bust balls without guys acting like bitches about it
Except its more than just busting balls with you, Pete. You'll deny it or pretend you don't know what I'm talking about but you've held a grudge going back to the RD forum. That's always been obvious.
I've said numerous times I think your a good poster with a lot of knowledge and you've done a lot of research I don't wanna do so I appreciate that we've had disagreements but it hasn't been personal on my side. I give you a hard time sometimes because your easy to get fired up I'll give it a rest though if you don't like a little back and forth

Does this mean you two are breaking up? Who gets to keep the Pug named Elroy and who gets the Journey CD collection??

by **Pete** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:35 pm

Wiseguy wrote:
Pete wrote:Of course pogo has to jump in for his butt buddy. let's all relax we should be able to bust balls without guys acting like bitches about it
Except its more than just busting balls with you, Pete. You'll deny it or pretend you don't know what I'm talking about but you've held a grudge going back to the RD forum. That's always been obvious.

I've said numerous times I think your a good poster with a lot of knowledge and you've done a lot of research I don't wanna do so I appreciate that we've had disagreements but it hasn't been personal on my side. I give you a hard time sometimes because your easy to get fired up I'll give it a rest though if you don't like a little back and forth

by **rayray** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:29 pm

Wiseguy wrote:The only way someone could admire mob guys is if they really believe and buy into that fantasy. And you would have to be totally delusional or just plain ignorant of the real life mob to believe that. That's one thing I've always liked about Scorseses Goodfellas and Casino. Sure, they live high early on but it all comes crashing down at the end. Eventually the devil gets his due.

Nah, Catholics go to confession and all is right in the world again, all is forgiven.

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