by InCamelot » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:14 pm
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:52 am
InCamelot wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:35 am
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:26 am
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:38 am
JeremyTheJew wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:18 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:28 pm
Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.
Ya.
Same w Pizza / East Bronx. I THINK a lot of the Crea is boss talk came from him to be honest. And he use to say AMUSO IN NO WAY bla bla.
Few other things that ppl literally took as gospel too... He's a good guy n all.... But turns out his info was really off lol.
But yes, corrozzo is another huge battle.
The big battle a decade ago was believe it or not....
Who was more powerful : Chicago or NYC .
And it would lead to the rizzuto family being over e eryone
I liked Pizza just like a lotta guys, but he was VERY Bronx -centric. You couldnt really tell him anything about the Bronx guys....
What I always found intriguing was that it was Funari's proteges who took over.
This speaks to Chris's point, was Funari the most respected? Feared? Despite ONLY being consigliere?Why HIS proteges and not the Bronx or Harlem guys'?
Also, on Fratianno, he sounds much more like Vitale when Vitale was Acting boss, underboss, Massinos lackey, or whatnot....
It goes into operational vs organizational. That's my "viability" shtick. The thesis is that we can't really know the internal organization based off of observation alone. If we were FBI agents surveying Brooklyn and Queens in the early 1990's we'd see Sal Vitale and Spero apparently in charge based off who they're meeting, with the respect shown and the way they carry themselves.. Second, do made guys go around telling their relatives and friends the inner workings of the organization? Maybe they hear 'So and so's a prick' but do they really sit them down and explain "so and so became boss, this guy was made consig and so and so inherited this crew." I can't say it hasn't happened but do people think it happens often?.. Without internal sources stating that Vitale was only Acting Boss that's what the FBI would jot it down as. Luckily by the 1980's there were plenty of informants to hash things out. Slightly different than ten years prior when, without informants laying it out, it took us 30 years to learn Galante was never the official boss. That's organizational. But operational? He was trying to take the position, he was making members, he more or less was the "highest" guy on the street, but as Vitale said, "he was never a boss."
It sucks. I wish it were as easy as observing who gets their hand shook and kissed the most as a guide for putting together a chart but it would be a fallacy. It's why we have a Detroit FBI chart from 63 listing 130 people yet from informants there were about 64 members. It sucks for me because I deal in the early history and would love to put out charts. But I couldn't do them with any degree of accuracy. In most cases we know who the bosses were but beyond that, who was made, who was not, who held rank is open to interpretation. And as helpful as newspapers are they are dangerous to rely on. D'Aquila's murder barely made the news, without Gentile then Greg Conte would have been another in a long list of black hand victims and not the boss of Pittsburgh in the 1910's.
If Merlino/Stanfa had duked it out in 1903 and not 1993, we'd have been without the wiretaps, any informants wouldn't have been properly utilized and the papers would have written about the Stanfa and Merlino mobs as separate organizations. Historians today would argue that the Merlino mob wiped the Stanfa mob out and that the current mob descends from Merlino. Which is more or less what happened BUT its important not to lose sight that it was an internal division within a singular entity, not warring gangs of Siggies.
Let's take it back further to Monreale in the 1870's, there was the so-called new mafia Stuppaghliari in a war against the old mafia called giardinieri. Did completely new Mafia organization rise up and defeat the old Mafia organization or was it an internal division in the Monreale Family? I lean towards the latter but there's no proof either way, everyone who was there was dead and these questions weren't asked or discussed at trial. Most Family splits are amicable and agreed upon. I can't think of one in the US that had a violent split and continued separate. Maybe Rochester? But even that's debatable as there's informants say they were separate, they never left Buffalo, they were under the Bonannos. Nothing really concrete.
Regarding Furnari and his actions. We know his position and others in the admin. The info to be extracted would be to see how they're individual duties functioned. Was Furnari advising Corallo or was it a political promotion? Things like that. It goes into operational which is just as important as the organizational. It's important to remember that just because someone isn't a certain rank doesn't mean he's a flunky. Uncle Joe, if he's retired, is technically a soldier. I think "soldier" is misleading and "member" would be a better description of made affiliates without rank.
And this has everything to do with Crea, doesn't it? Sorry.
Question about operational vs organizational. Do you mean that 'organizational' still has the ability to veto or adjust an operational decision? If not, what would be the point of identifying organizational positions in a Family?
And in regards to Pizzaboy/EB posts: don't the most recent findings indicate that he was actually correct about Crea? He was saying Crea would run shit and no way Amuso would. It might be a little off in that Amuso wasn't just nobody - but the OP indicates ppl deferred to Crea.
Ok, we're all part of a forum. We have Soliai who's boss, he has mods (capos) and regular posters (soldiers). Everyone here is free to to post about whatever they want. I'm a mod (capo) who deals with making charts and historical bullshit. I'm not Capo of the Charts/History with posters (soldiers) like B. reporting to me. We're all free to post what we want outside of the Forum's Chain of command. If Soliai "takes me down" to poster, my posts (activities) would remain the same- charts and historical BS. My posts (operational) don't correspond to my rank (organizational.) Make sense?
This matters because outsiders would look at individuals who have a high-level operational activity (Villain dominates Chicago) and many would think he's a mod (capo) when he isn't. It doesn't take away from his importance in the overall function of the forum.
Maybe B. be can articulate it better because I must not be good at explaining it.
Salut.
Right, absolutely. These are good analogies, guys.
I think in the context of the Amuso and Crea conversation, I was trying to clarify that the title of boss seems pretty loose and complicated nowadays with the stuff that comes out. There's a limit to what that title means. Just because Amuso has the ability to take him down, or veto his choices..it doesn't mean Crea has many, if any, equals. And it doesn't mean if you put Amuso on the street he would be able to run things.
The phrase "running shit" may not be what it was to a Carlo Gambino, Tommy Lucchese or Chin Gigante.
Or else it would be like saying Soliai is the boss, and therefore he decides each day what type of topics will be posted, what charts, etc. He can take people down, etc -- but he isn't driving the conversations on here (all due respect). If CC, Villian, B or Gohn or whoever else took their knowledge and shared it on another site - its likely a lot of us would head there and check it out. Everyone actually deferring to you for the most part, counts for more than just being a mere capo or figurehead.
There's probably a limit to comparing the boards to LCN, but yeah.
[quote="Chris Christie" post_id=173959 time=1605700364 user_id=69]
[quote=InCamelot post_id=173821 time=1605551731 user_id=4353]
[quote="Chris Christie" post_id=157888 time=1593271598 user_id=69]
[quote=CabriniGreen post_id=157885 time=1593268717 user_id=5378]
[quote=JeremyTheJew post_id=157772 time=1593137905 user_id=58]
[quote=johnny_scootch post_id=157768 time=1593131307 user_id=105]
Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.
[/quote]
Ya.
Same w Pizza / East Bronx. I THINK a lot of the Crea is boss talk came from him to be honest. And he use to say AMUSO IN NO WAY bla bla.
Few other things that ppl literally took as gospel too... He's a good guy n all.... But turns out his info was really off lol.
But yes, corrozzo is another huge battle.
The big battle a decade ago was believe it or not....
Who was more powerful : Chicago or NYC .
And it would lead to the rizzuto family being over e eryone
[/quote]
I liked Pizza just like a lotta guys, but he was VERY Bronx -centric. You couldnt really tell him anything about the Bronx guys....
What I always found intriguing was that it was Funari's proteges who took over.
This speaks to Chris's point, was Funari the most respected? Feared? Despite ONLY being consigliere?Why HIS proteges and not the Bronx or Harlem guys'?
Also, on Fratianno, he sounds much more like Vitale when Vitale was Acting boss, underboss, Massinos lackey, or whatnot....
[/quote]
It goes into operational vs organizational. That's my "viability" shtick. The thesis is that we can't really know the internal organization based off of observation alone. If we were FBI agents surveying Brooklyn and Queens in the early 1990's we'd see Sal Vitale and Spero apparently in charge based off who they're meeting, with the respect shown and the way they carry themselves.. Second, do made guys go around telling their relatives and friends the inner workings of the organization? Maybe they hear 'So and so's a prick' but do they really sit them down and explain "so and so became boss, this guy was made consig and so and so inherited this crew." I can't say it hasn't happened but do people think it happens often?.. Without internal sources stating that Vitale was only Acting Boss that's what the FBI would jot it down as. Luckily by the 1980's there were plenty of informants to hash things out. Slightly different than ten years prior when, without informants laying it out, it took us 30 years to learn Galante was never the official boss. That's organizational. But operational? He was trying to take the position, he was making members, he more or less was the "highest" guy on the street, but as Vitale said, "he was never a boss."
It sucks. I wish it were as easy as observing who gets their hand shook and kissed the most as a guide for putting together a chart but it would be a fallacy. It's why we have a Detroit FBI chart from 63 listing 130 people yet from informants there were about 64 members. It sucks for me because I deal in the early history and would love to put out charts. But I couldn't do them with any degree of accuracy. In most cases we know who the bosses were but beyond that, who was made, who was not, who held rank is open to interpretation. And as helpful as newspapers are they are dangerous to rely on. D'Aquila's murder barely made the news, without Gentile then Greg Conte would have been another in a long list of black hand victims and not the boss of Pittsburgh in the 1910's.
If Merlino/Stanfa had duked it out in 1903 and not 1993, we'd have been without the wiretaps, any informants wouldn't have been properly utilized and the papers would have written about the Stanfa and Merlino mobs as separate organizations. Historians today would argue that the Merlino mob wiped the Stanfa mob out and that the current mob descends from Merlino. Which is more or less what happened BUT its important not to lose sight that it was an internal division within a singular entity, not warring gangs of Siggies.
Let's take it back further to Monreale in the 1870's, there was the so-called new mafia Stuppaghliari in a war against the old mafia called giardinieri. Did completely new Mafia organization rise up and defeat the old Mafia organization or was it an internal division in the Monreale Family? I lean towards the latter but there's no proof either way, everyone who was there was dead and these questions weren't asked or discussed at trial. Most Family splits are amicable and agreed upon. I can't think of one in the US that had a violent split and continued separate. Maybe Rochester? But even that's debatable as there's informants say they were separate, they never left Buffalo, they were under the Bonannos. Nothing really concrete.
Regarding Furnari and his actions. We know his position and others in the admin. The info to be extracted would be to see how they're individual duties functioned. Was Furnari advising Corallo or was it a political promotion? Things like that. It goes into operational which is just as important as the organizational. It's important to remember that just because someone isn't a certain rank doesn't mean he's a flunky. Uncle Joe, if he's retired, is technically a soldier. I think "soldier" is misleading and "member" would be a better description of made affiliates without rank.
And this has everything to do with Crea, doesn't it? Sorry.
[/quote]
Question about operational vs organizational. Do you mean that 'organizational' still has the ability to veto or adjust an operational decision? If not, what would be the point of identifying organizational positions in a Family?
And in regards to Pizzaboy/EB posts: don't the most recent findings indicate that he was actually correct about Crea? He was saying Crea would run shit and no way Amuso would. It might be a little off in that Amuso wasn't just nobody - but the OP indicates ppl deferred to Crea.
[/quote]
Ok, we're all part of a forum. We have Soliai who's boss, he has mods (capos) and regular posters (soldiers). Everyone here is free to to post about whatever they want. I'm a mod (capo) who deals with making charts and historical bullshit. I'm not Capo of the Charts/History with posters (soldiers) like B. reporting to me. We're all free to post what we want outside of the Forum's Chain of command. If Soliai "takes me down" to poster, my posts (activities) would remain the same- charts and historical BS. My posts (operational) don't correspond to my rank (organizational.) Make sense?
This matters because outsiders would look at individuals who have a high-level operational activity (Villain dominates Chicago) and many would think he's a mod (capo) when he isn't. It doesn't take away from his importance in the overall function of the forum.
Maybe B. be can articulate it better because I must not be good at explaining it.
Salut.
[/quote]
Right, absolutely. These are good analogies, guys.
I think in the context of the Amuso and Crea conversation, I was trying to clarify that the title of boss seems pretty loose and complicated nowadays with the stuff that comes out. There's a limit to what that title means. Just because Amuso has the ability to take him down, or veto his choices..it doesn't mean Crea has many, if any, equals. And it doesn't mean if you put Amuso on the street he would be able to run things.
The phrase "running shit" may not be what it was to a Carlo Gambino, Tommy Lucchese or Chin Gigante.
Or else it would be like saying Soliai is the boss, and therefore he decides each day what type of topics will be posted, what charts, etc. He can take people down, etc -- but he isn't driving the conversations on here (all due respect). If CC, Villian, B or Gohn or whoever else took their knowledge and shared it on another site - its likely a lot of us would head there and check it out. Everyone actually deferring to you for the most part, counts for more than just being a mere capo or figurehead.
There's probably a limit to comparing the boards to LCN, but yeah.