by PolackTony » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:22 pm
Villain wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:38 am
Well i have to say thats some interesting thinking since i never looked at the situation from that perspective....as you already said, DeBiase was one of those mysterious cases who in turn was with mob since the last days of Prohibition, and it is quite possible that he held some high spot within the EP/Grand Av crew. I think that Capezio was the top guy of the group, followed by Cerone as his second in command and DeBiase probably came on third place...i dunno im just speculating here
Maybe in later years DeBiase was some type of elder statesman for the crew, same as Rocco DeGrazia who held that position within Battaglias crew, although DeGrazia was a former capo.
Also if DeBiase brought in Lombardo, then your theory falls in line but what about Alderisio and Nicoletti. During the late 60s Lombardo was quite close with Alderisio who in those days was the top rep for the West Side, and the most interesting thing was that by the mid 60s the connections between the Battaglia and Cerone crews became cold and blurry out of various reasons. Who knows, maybe Lombardo disconnected himself from the EP crew to an extent and joined Alderisio and Nicoletti....
Another interesting thing is one file from that same time period which states that Bobby Doer...an alias for Rocco Salvatore, Battaglias personal assistant, was in charge of a group of young hoodlums that also included one Joe Lombardi Jr. There was one Lombardi in the EP crew under Cerone but during those days he was already quite known by LE so i doubt that it was him in the file. As for Lombardo, many say that his real name was in fact Lombardi and on top of that, Salvatore was in the same group with Alderisio and Nicoletti...i also think that when Battaglia went to prison, Salvatore got shelved or something like that...just my two cents
Thanks for the info on Rocco Salvatore and the MP guys. In regards to DeBiase, I wonder if in the 60s he was actually a capo in charge of a crew of guys, or if he was more of an "elder statesman" figure. He died in 1983, and I don't have much info on his potential role in the Outfit after the 60s. I do know that he was observed by the Feds at a card game joint at Grand and May in 1974 with Lombardo and Frankie Schwiehs, so looks like he was still active at some level and definitely connected to the new Grand Ave crew in some way.
I don't see any reason to think that Lombardo was brought in under Debiase of course. Perhaps for "political" reasons, or perhaps simply due to opportunities with particular rackets and need for muscle etc, Grand Ave neighborhood guys Lombardo and Spilotro wound up getting made under Alderisio (as with the Calabrese bros winding up under Chinatown), while their contemporary and fellow neighborhood kid DiFronzo wound up with EP. We know that Lombardo and Spilotro were both ambitious and very thuggish, maybe they just went for the first crew that took advantage of what they had to offer. Seems possible that by the 60s, regardless of DeBiase's role, EP had diminishing direct interests in the Grand Ave Patch so likely the power vacuum got filled in by Battaglia/Alderisio. We also know, however, that Lombardo (like Spilotro) was something of a "boy wonder" and was close personally to several Outfit bosses (Aiuppa, Cerone). For example, I understand that he used to caddy for Cerone's golf games. This is where the neighborhood connections come into play, as this is a dynamic that doesn't conform to the formal hierarchy of the organization necessarily. To borrow @Chris Christie's useful framework, while Lombardo was "organizationally" a part of the Alderisio/MP Westside faction, he maintained strong "operational" ties to Elmwood Park, in part due to longstanding neighborhood connections I think. Lombardo was a Grand Ave Patch creature to his core, up until Family Secrets he was like the avatar of the old heritage of the neighborhood. Seems that DeBiase may have been a similar character until Lombardo's formal rise.
And yes, Lombardo was Giuseppe Lombardi, so the Joe Lombardi thing in the documents is always a confusion. What's odd here is that he's described as "Joseph Lombardi, JR.". His father was Michele Lombardi though, so that doesn't make too much sense. I honestly don't know too much about the other Joe Lombardi, just that he seems to have been an EP associate (not aware that he was thought to ever be made). He may have been a Joseph Lombardi Jr who died in 1978 (father Giuseppe Lombardi). THis family was from Potenza though so not even related to Lombardo. Given the connections to Melrose Park guys like De Angelis, Cervone, DeRosa, I'm also thinking this report is likely referring to Lombardo. Maybe the feds were also confused and thus put the "Jr". FWIW, when Lombardo's daughter Joann was at Jones HS in the 70's she went by Lombardi, so they must've still used that spelling sometimes.
Also, I'm sure you've seen it, there's some FBI documents in the 60s stating that "Joseph Lombardo" was part of a crew responsible for a great portion of the OC homicides in the city at the time. I'm also guessing this was Lombardo and not this other Lombardi dude.
Also, this interesting 1962 wiretap of a phone conversation between Joe Nagall and some guy name "George" (LNU), regarding the various Joe Lombardi's:
[quote=Villain post_id=158405 time=1593711483 user_id=88]
Well i have to say thats some interesting thinking since i never looked at the situation from that perspective....as you already said, DeBiase was one of those mysterious cases who in turn was with mob since the last days of Prohibition, and it is quite possible that he held some high spot within the EP/Grand Av crew. I think that Capezio was the top guy of the group, followed by Cerone as his second in command and DeBiase probably came on third place...i dunno im just speculating here
Maybe in later years DeBiase was some type of elder statesman for the crew, same as Rocco DeGrazia who held that position within Battaglias crew, although DeGrazia was a former capo.
Also if DeBiase brought in Lombardo, then your theory falls in line but what about Alderisio and Nicoletti. During the late 60s Lombardo was quite close with Alderisio who in those days was the top rep for the West Side, and the most interesting thing was that by the mid 60s the connections between the Battaglia and Cerone crews became cold and blurry out of various reasons. Who knows, maybe Lombardo disconnected himself from the EP crew to an extent and joined Alderisio and Nicoletti....
Another interesting thing is one file from that same time period which states that Bobby Doer...an alias for Rocco Salvatore, Battaglias personal assistant, was in charge of a group of young hoodlums that also included one Joe Lombardi Jr. There was one Lombardi in the EP crew under Cerone but during those days he was already quite known by LE so i doubt that it was him in the file. As for Lombardo, many say that his real name was in fact Lombardi and on top of that, Salvatore was in the same group with Alderisio and Nicoletti...i also think that when Battaglia went to prison, Salvatore got shelved or something like that...just my two cents
[/quote]
Thanks for the info on Rocco Salvatore and the MP guys. In regards to DeBiase, I wonder if in the 60s he was actually a capo in charge of a crew of guys, or if he was more of an "elder statesman" figure. He died in 1983, and I don't have much info on his potential role in the Outfit after the 60s. I do know that he was observed by the Feds at a card game joint at Grand and May in 1974 with Lombardo and Frankie Schwiehs, so looks like he was still active at some level and definitely connected to the new Grand Ave crew in some way.
I don't see any reason to think that Lombardo was brought in under Debiase of course. Perhaps for "political" reasons, or perhaps simply due to opportunities with particular rackets and need for muscle etc, Grand Ave neighborhood guys Lombardo and Spilotro wound up getting made under Alderisio (as with the Calabrese bros winding up under Chinatown), while their contemporary and fellow neighborhood kid DiFronzo wound up with EP. We know that Lombardo and Spilotro were both ambitious and very thuggish, maybe they just went for the first crew that took advantage of what they had to offer. Seems possible that by the 60s, regardless of DeBiase's role, EP had diminishing direct interests in the Grand Ave Patch so likely the power vacuum got filled in by Battaglia/Alderisio. We also know, however, that Lombardo (like Spilotro) was something of a "boy wonder" and was close personally to several Outfit bosses (Aiuppa, Cerone). For example, I understand that he used to caddy for Cerone's golf games. This is where the neighborhood connections come into play, as this is a dynamic that doesn't conform to the formal hierarchy of the organization necessarily. To borrow @Chris Christie's useful framework, while Lombardo was "organizationally" a part of the Alderisio/MP Westside faction, he maintained strong "operational" ties to Elmwood Park, in part due to longstanding neighborhood connections I think. Lombardo was a Grand Ave Patch creature to his core, up until Family Secrets he was like the avatar of the old heritage of the neighborhood. Seems that DeBiase may have been a similar character until Lombardo's formal rise.
And yes, Lombardo was Giuseppe Lombardi, so the Joe Lombardi thing in the documents is always a confusion. What's odd here is that he's described as "Joseph Lombardi, JR.". His father was Michele Lombardi though, so that doesn't make too much sense. I honestly don't know too much about the other Joe Lombardi, just that he seems to have been an EP associate (not aware that he was thought to ever be made). He may have been a Joseph Lombardi Jr who died in 1978 (father Giuseppe Lombardi). THis family was from Potenza though so not even related to Lombardo. Given the connections to Melrose Park guys like De Angelis, Cervone, DeRosa, I'm also thinking this report is likely referring to Lombardo. Maybe the feds were also confused and thus put the "Jr". FWIW, when Lombardo's daughter Joann was at Jones HS in the 70's she went by Lombardi, so they must've still used that spelling sometimes.
Also, I'm sure you've seen it, there's some FBI documents in the 60s stating that "Joseph Lombardo" was part of a crew responsible for a great portion of the OC homicides in the city at the time. I'm also guessing this was Lombardo and not this other Lombardi dude.
Also, this interesting 1962 wiretap of a phone conversation between Joe Nagall and some guy name "George" (LNU), regarding the various Joe Lombardi's:
[img="https://i.ibb.co/51wzNBX/Capture.png" ] [/img]