by Angelo Santino » Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:46 am
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:58 pm
Ah thanks for that clearing that up. Do we have an idea of how many members these groups had back then? Did Clemente ever give estimates on how many members in his own family? Thanks.
Pogo
Nope. They never asked him nor did they ask the groups' history. Law enforcement was not that advanced, to them "gangs" were groups of people associated for the purpose of committing a specific crime, anything larger than that was still questionable. In 1900 world law enforcement were still asking the question- what is organized crime? And the generally accepted narrative was any crime that is planned in advance. Getting mad and murdering someone isn't organized wheras planning to kill someone by getting a gun and digging a hole for the body would be.
The largest Sicilian demographic in NYC was Palermo so it was like the Gambinos who were the largest, that as well as that faction being the oldest in NY, since 1860.
One thing to consider is that NYC was like 5 streams having 10-15 different pools of people flowing in. If a mafioso from Sicily were to move to NY, in order for him to be involved he has to go through a transfer to a NY Family. And they have to be recognized, someone wouldn't be refused because "the books were closed." With immigration being what it is, the mafia in 1905-1925 probably didn't have the hold on membership that they would post-1930. During this period more Palermitans arrived than Corleonese and Castellammarese so chances are the streams coming in float disproportionately towards the Gambinos (hence the need for two Palermitan groups). You might have seen more Cast members in Williamsburg than there were in CDG itself. The Corleonese might have made more American-associated Sicilians and Italians early on.. It's all speculation.
I hold open the possibility that there were alot of members who escaped identification. Had it not been for Gentile we would have never have known Conte was a boss, he would have been just another Sicilian businessman who may or may not have been shady. Conte (and even D'Aquila's) newspaper coverage should be very concerning for people who rely heavily on the papers as neither men's underworld significance was mentioned. How many other things escaped scrutiny? Gentile, Clemete, Bonanno and Valachi could only go so many places and meet so many people, it would be foolish to think we know everything.
There was a another thread B. was involved in who made the case that family membership sizes may have been consistent (more or less) since 1931 where groups were capped at where they were. In this range it's typically been Genovese-Gambino-Lucchese-Bonanno-Colombo from largest to smallest. That's more or less congruent with the size speculations before the Cast War. There were people switching around after the war as Valachi noted but I'm not sure if this tipped the scale towards any group. Since they were not divided up and equally distributed their members to have an equal number, I think we can conclude that wasn't their focus at the time and there's a strong possibility the 1930's onward may reflect the early 1920's as that's when things were building up, not the 1930's.
Another thing- had Maranzano lost the rebel factions who followed him- parts of the Lucchese and either part or all of the Bonanno family would have been the Orena faction of 1930. Instead they won and they split up their formation to go back to their formal Families- Lucchese and Bonanno. Gentile mentioned the Maranzano group was composed of people who left other groups because they had issue with Masseria's dictatorship, who knows if this included anyone officially leaving the Gambinos/Colombos or Genoveses, it's possible some left rather than lend silent support which we seen with Traina.
[quote="Pogo The Clown" post_id=154961 time=1591325883 user_id=53]
Ah thanks for that clearing that up. Do we have an idea of how many members these groups had back then? Did Clemente ever give estimates on how many members in his own family? Thanks.
Pogo
[/quote]
Nope. They never asked him nor did they ask the groups' history. Law enforcement was not that advanced, to them "gangs" were groups of people associated for the purpose of committing a specific crime, anything larger than that was still questionable. In 1900 world law enforcement were still asking the question- what is organized crime? And the generally accepted narrative was any crime that is planned in advance. Getting mad and murdering someone isn't organized wheras planning to kill someone by getting a gun and digging a hole for the body would be.
The largest Sicilian demographic in NYC was Palermo so it was like the Gambinos who were the largest, that as well as that faction being the oldest in NY, since 1860.
One thing to consider is that NYC was like 5 streams having 10-15 different pools of people flowing in. If a mafioso from Sicily were to move to NY, in order for him to be involved he has to go through a transfer to a NY Family. And they have to be recognized, someone wouldn't be refused because "the books were closed." With immigration being what it is, the mafia in 1905-1925 probably didn't have the hold on membership that they would post-1930. During this period more Palermitans arrived than Corleonese and Castellammarese so chances are the streams coming in float disproportionately towards the Gambinos (hence the need for two Palermitan groups). You might have seen more Cast members in Williamsburg than there were in CDG itself. The Corleonese might have made more American-associated Sicilians and Italians early on.. It's all speculation.
I hold open the possibility that there were alot of members who escaped identification. Had it not been for Gentile we would have never have known Conte was a boss, he would have been just another Sicilian businessman who may or may not have been shady. Conte (and even D'Aquila's) newspaper coverage should be very concerning for people who rely heavily on the papers as neither men's underworld significance was mentioned. How many other things escaped scrutiny? Gentile, Clemete, Bonanno and Valachi could only go so many places and meet so many people, it would be foolish to think we know everything.
There was a another thread B. was involved in who made the case that family membership sizes may have been consistent (more or less) since 1931 where groups were capped at where they were. In this range it's typically been Genovese-Gambino-Lucchese-Bonanno-Colombo from largest to smallest. That's more or less congruent with the size speculations before the Cast War. There were people switching around after the war as Valachi noted but I'm not sure if this tipped the scale towards any group. Since they were not divided up and equally distributed their members to have an equal number, I think we can conclude that wasn't their focus at the time and there's a strong possibility the 1930's onward may reflect the early 1920's as that's when things were building up, not the 1930's.
Another thing- had Maranzano lost the rebel factions who followed him- parts of the Lucchese and either part or all of the Bonanno family would have been the Orena faction of 1930. Instead they won and they split up their formation to go back to their formal Families- Lucchese and Bonanno. Gentile mentioned the Maranzano group was composed of people who left other groups because they had issue with Masseria's dictatorship, who knows if this included anyone officially leaving the Gambinos/Colombos or Genoveses, it's possible some left rather than lend silent support which we seen with Traina.