YAKUZA and Tongs

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Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by scagghiuni » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:09 pm

Peppermint wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:24 pm Not only has Yakuza organization’s in general been experiencing a decline in membership. Largely due in part to the general population decline Japan as a whole has been experiencing. But the Kobe faction, within Yamaguchi-Gumi split off from the rest of the clan, and call themselves Kobe Yamaguchi-Gumi. So you’d imagine a large chunk of that 10,000, were accounted for in that split especially considering they originated in Kobe Japan to begin with.
yes, but it seems they always counted both made members and associates in the past estimates, so before the split it had about 5.000 full members, by far less than its peak in the 1960s, at least according to what i read

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Peppermint » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:24 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:49 pm You hear about the Chinese Godfather? He made them an offer they couldn't understand.


Pogo
LOL
scagghiuni wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:36 am
Wiseguy wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:40 pm Yakuza Membership Hits New Record Low

https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00694/
i thought that yamaguchi-gumi had 10.000 members, according to this source only 4000 are full members (the resta re associates), it would be less than ndrangheta or cosa nostra in italy
Not only has Yakuza organization’s in general been experiencing a decline in membership. Largely due in part to the general population decline Japan as a whole has been experiencing. But the Kobe faction, within Yamaguchi-Gumi split off from the rest of the clan, and call themselves Kobe Yamaguchi-Gumi. So you’d imagine a large chunk of that 10,000, were accounted for in that split especially considering they originated in Kobe Japan to begin with.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by sdeitche » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:22 pm

JeremyTheJew wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:00 am
sdeitche wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:21 am I was working on a potential book project back in 2005, that never came to fruition, with a Japanese wrestler who infiltrated the yakuza in Hawaii. He just recently passed away. I amassed a good deal of material about their activities. Think I still have it in my cavern o' files- if so, will post some stuff.
Why didn't the book come out?
Didn't get much interest in the proposal from publishers, then he moved back to Japan, so we called it a day.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by JeremyTheJew » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:00 am

sdeitche wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:21 am I was working on a potential book project back in 2005, that never came to fruition, with a Japanese wrestler who infiltrated the yakuza in Hawaii. He just recently passed away. I amassed a good deal of material about their activities. Think I still have it in my cavern o' files- if so, will post some stuff.
Why didn't the book come out?

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by sdeitche » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:21 am

I was working on a potential book project back in 2005, that never came to fruition, with a Japanese wrestler who infiltrated the yakuza in Hawaii. He just recently passed away. I amassed a good deal of material about their activities. Think I still have it in my cavern o' files- if so, will post some stuff.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by scagghiuni » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:36 am

Wiseguy wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:40 pm Yakuza Membership Hits New Record Low

https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00694/
i thought that yamaguchi-gumi had 10.000 members, according to this source only 4000 are full members (the resta re associates), it would be less than ndrangheta or cosa nostra in italy

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Wiseguy » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:40 pm

Yakuza Membership Hits New Record Low

https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00694/

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by CabriniGreen » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:38 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:49 pm You hear about the Chinese Godfather? He made them an offer they couldn't understand.


Pogo
Lol, I gotta admit, this is great timing.....

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Targenmantarian » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:00 pm

There's some in Honolulu. A few in LA and SF/Seattle/Vancouver and Toronto.

But it's not like a burgeoning movement or anything. They slide in wherever there's a Japanese population and do whatever they can to make money. But they were never a huge force. And now even less so.

Thing about the Yakuza is it's fragmented.

There's like dozens or even hundreds of families or organizations. Every town has one.

I'm friends with a Yazuka member in a small City in rural/industrial Japan. His crew is like 50ish guys or so. They do the typical pachinko shakedowns and run hoes and some drugs. And they tie into a larger organization. But they are largely left to do their own thing in their little segment of Japan that no one cares about or goes to.

He's into music. That's how we met. Him and his friends are great guys. Def more urbane than Goodfellas. They know more stuff about non criminal life be it art, travel, fashion, or film. Even farming. They are totally immersed in being low level small town gangsters. But they don't for money. It doesn't utterly define them the way it would guys in Kobe or dudes on Mulberry Street.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Pogo The Clown » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:49 pm

You hear about the Chinese Godfather? He made them an offer they couldn't understand.


Pogo

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Slumpy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Not much reason to talk about a benevolent association for immigrants that's doing what it should be doing. Even the criminal ones operated as a normal Tong on the surface. But upon further research, I am definitely wrong in my belief that the Tong model was abandoned. The Hip Sings in Portland were raided on drug conspiracy charges in 2012, and the Chicago PD apparently have an ongoing investigation into the Chicago branch.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Wiseguy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:22 pm

Slumpy wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:18 pm Nah, a "tong" is just a social outreach organization / social club. Many of them had no criminal association at all, which is what made them such great fronts for more criminal minded businessmen; It's like if Americans were to start using a Rec Centre as a front for criminal activity. They are/were about helping Chinese migrants acclimate to their new home by offering immigrant counseling and things like English classes.

Often, a singular tong is also a member of a larger tong organization and one particular tong is just that city's "branch", so you can have a situation in which Tongs under the same umbrella can be legitimate or criminal. That remains the case today, as recently as 2018 a branch of the Hip Sing organization (Chicago) was under investigation for organized crime links. Individual chapters have a great amount of autonomy and there is very little top-down oversight from the mother organization.

They are illegal in china because the root of the Tong system is in a political dissident movement whose aims were to oust the Qing dynasty (1644-1911). They were a secret society and all secret societies are outlawed in China.When the state crackdown came, that's when many members fled to various places in NA and Europe, bringing the Tong system with them.
They might not all be criminal but, as far as the ones most are familiar with - like in New York City in the past or on the West Coast - they have had a good amount of criminal activity.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Slumpy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:18 pm

Nah, a "tong" is just a social outreach organization / social club. Many of them had no criminal association at all, which is what made them such great fronts for more criminal minded businessmen; It's like if Americans were to start using a Rec Centre as a front for criminal activity. They are/were about helping Chinese migrants acclimate to their new home by offering immigrant counseling and things like English classes.

Often, a singular tong is also a member of a larger tong organization and one particular tong is just that city's "branch", so you can have a situation in which Tongs under the same umbrella can be legitimate or criminal. That remains the case today, as recently as 2018 a branch of the Hip Sing organization (Chicago) was under investigation for organized crime links. Individual chapters have a great amount of autonomy and there is very little top-down oversight from the mother organization.

They are illegal in china because the root of the Tong system is in a political dissident movement whose aims were to oust the Qing dynasty (1644-1911). They were a secret society and all secret societies are outlawed in China.When the state crackdown came, that's when many members fled to various places in NA and Europe, bringing the Tong system with them.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by Wiseguy » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:02 pm

JeremyTheJew wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:58 amI thought the TONGS were 100% gang and it was the Yakuza who had civies involved with them??

Ik that in China it's a crime to just be a member.

Anyone see the movies Election and Triad Election???
EXCELLENT MOVIES
Tongs are fraternal organizations that, while ostensibly legitimate, would often oversee criminal operations. In New York back in the day, each Chinatown street gang was affiliated with a local Tong and were used as enforcers.

Re: YAKUZA and Tongs

by JeremyTheJew » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:58 am

Slumpy wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:40 am Frankly I think the reports that the Yakuza having lost significant membership and influence, while true on the face of it, is an image that is encouraged by the Yakuza itself. You'll often see these guys appearing in documentaries that detail the decline of the Yakuza which seems incredibly self serving and deceptive to me. They have likely just gone a little underground and begun operating more like North American and European OC.

That said, I agree with Wiseguy, I don't think they have any significant presence in the US, if any at all.

IMO, the Tong model was abandoned once LE became wise to the game, not too dissimilar to the Mafia ditching the social clubs once they became hotbeds for surveillance. The Tongs themselves still exist, but likely not as criminal fronts. Even the ones that were fronts had board members that were non-criminal civilians and the Tongs operated as a legitimate social outreach institution even when a criminal element existed.
I thought the TONGS were 100% gang and it was the Yakuza who had civies involved with them??

Ik that in China it's a crime to just be a member.

Anyone see the movies Election and Triad Election???
EXCELLENT MOVIES

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