Mancuso / Cammarano side

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Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by Pete » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:00 am

On the shelf your basically dead. Can’t earn and no rank seems it would be hard to shelf a guy like that... acting boss he’s gotta still earn. Maybe not

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by johnny_scootch » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:59 am

thekiduknow wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:09 am From what I understand regarding shelving, it basically means you lose your mafia connections, privileges and rank. But you might still get to keep your business and I believe you still have to kick up a percentage. Vincent Caroleo was shelved by Cammarano Jr, who had an associate collect payments from his loansharking racket.

I also think that shelved members are still counted as “Family” members, so there’s no vacancy, they just can’t talk with any made members.
When you get put on the shelf they try to take everything away from you that they can and reassign it to people close to them. It's a money grab in a lot of ways.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by thekiduknow » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:09 am

From what I understand regarding shelving, it basically means you lose your mafia connections, privileges and rank. But you might still get to keep your business and I believe you still have to kick up a percentage. Vincent Caroleo was shelved by Cammarano Jr, who had an associate collect payments from his loansharking racket.

I also think that shelved members are still counted as “Family” members, so there’s no vacancy, they just can’t talk with any made members.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by CabriniGreen » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:25 am

Another question @B

So in your opinion, if Montagna DOESN'T get deported, WHO becomes boss? Montagna or Mancuso? Who had 6he power?

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by CabriniGreen » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:23 am

Question...

How does shelving a mobster work exactly?

Some have mentioned how Cammarano, the Grimaldis, these guys have big sports books right?

So, Mancuso calls em in. He gives em his reasoning for shelving them, and then says.... Turn over all your businesses? Is that how it works? Is this only the illegal stuff? Do they give up their gambling ledgers?


CAN he stop the action without their gambling/ loan ledgers?

Think, what was his name? Tomasulo? With the poker machines? Vitale told him that his machines belonged to the family after the father died, and the son balked, talked a little too freely and got whacked.

So, did they have to turn over their books?

Or are they just cut off from any interactions within the family, cut out of the decision making process, but they still keep their businesses?

Are the other families under an obligation to respect the ruling from Mancuso? If say, there's a beef in, whatever, gambling turf, and Mancuso gets tough at the table, and pisses off say, the Genovese, would the Genovese go and do a sneak move and talk to Cammarano or Grimaldi? Or would they respect the ruling from Mancuso? Its politics, and situational, right?

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by Pete » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:04 pm

Griz23 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:11 am Good thought Pete it could be something like that. I just remember reading once Salerno would meet with Mancuso. They might not be related at all.
Yes Salerno would visit him in Danbury and give out his orders. Definitely his messenger

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by JeremyTheJew » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:58 am

Mason_dixon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:17 am Yeah Cammaranos father was an important man in the family. Zancocoio sorry about spelling had a huge profitable book. The grimaldis has big books. I would think Mancuso is going to have to bring them back into the fold at some point. Maybe they are just in a time out so to speak. Seems like the power of the Bonnanos has been in the Bronx tho since Goregous. Maybe not the money but the most violent crew.
Cammarano Snr was at one time Massino UB I believe??

He was one of very few who didn't flip during the Massino fall. They deff rebuilt there family a few times..

Bonanno war.
Galante.
Three capo war / Donnie brasco fall out
Then Massino fall out

And now there back up there. I wonder if it's bc of there close ties to dope that there able to bounce back so we'll.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by Griz23 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:11 am

Good thought Pete it could be something like that. I just remember reading once Salerno would meet with Mancuso. They might not be related at all.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by Pete » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:45 am

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:07 am
Pete wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:43 pm
gohnjotti wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:53 pm
Pete wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:04 pm
Griz23 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:35 am Isn’t Frank Salerno related to Mancuso through marriage? I have to think he is one of the close guys with Mancuso. Also can anyone explain to me who John Spirito is? I know he is close with Mancuso but don’t know much about him.
He has been referred to as mancuso nephew but there has nothing to back up he is actually his nephew
It’s in Gang Land News, and I cant see any other way that he would be allowed on Michael Mancuso’s visitation list, especially after Mancuso was already on the FBI’s radar for writing coded letters to Ernie Aiello.
They could have said he was a nephew to get on the list. Once they realized he was passing out Mancusos orders he was banned from visiting. I would have to look for the link but I think Capeci even said in one article something about if it was truly his nephew. Could be wrong
Good point, I doubt the BOP looks at a guy's family tree.
Also remember Italians can use terms like nephew very loosely. Again I’m not saying it is or isn’t his nephew I just recall somewhere it was talked about it might not be his nephew in the true sense of the term

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by gohnjotti » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:07 am

Pete wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:43 pm
gohnjotti wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:53 pm
Pete wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:04 pm
Griz23 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:35 am Isn’t Frank Salerno related to Mancuso through marriage? I have to think he is one of the close guys with Mancuso. Also can anyone explain to me who John Spirito is? I know he is close with Mancuso but don’t know much about him.
He has been referred to as mancuso nephew but there has nothing to back up he is actually his nephew
It’s in Gang Land News, and I cant see any other way that he would be allowed on Michael Mancuso’s visitation list, especially after Mancuso was already on the FBI’s radar for writing coded letters to Ernie Aiello.
They could have said he was a nephew to get on the list. Once they realized he was passing out Mancusos orders he was banned from visiting. I would have to look for the link but I think Capeci even said in one article something about if it was truly his nephew. Could be wrong
Good point, I doubt the BOP looks at a guy's family tree.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by Pete » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:43 pm

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:53 pm
Pete wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:04 pm
Griz23 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:35 am Isn’t Frank Salerno related to Mancuso through marriage? I have to think he is one of the close guys with Mancuso. Also can anyone explain to me who John Spirito is? I know he is close with Mancuso but don’t know much about him.
He has been referred to as mancuso nephew but there has nothing to back up he is actually his nephew
It’s in Gang Land News, and I cant see any other way that he would be allowed on Michael Mancuso’s visitation list, especially after Mancuso was already on the FBI’s radar for writing coded letters to Ernie Aiello.
They could have said he was a nephew to get on the list. Once they realized he was passing out Mancusos orders he was banned from visiting. I would have to look for the link but I think Capeci even said in one article something about if it was truly his nephew. Could be wrong

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by B. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:44 pm

He was no stranger to Montreal. Born there, relatives living there, and his NYC-based brother's social media account lists the defunct Montreal Expos as a favorite baseball team. Might seem silly to point out, but that Expos bit suggests the NYC Montagnas retained connection to Montreal culture after settling in NYC (coincidentally, Frank Lino testified that when he and Vitale visited the Montreal crew in the early 1990s, they attended an Expos game). Add that with Cicale's info about Montagna being under Gerlando Sciascia and serving as a go-between to Montreal years before his deportation, and we can figure Montagna's actions in Montreal weren't simply a "cold call" by a total outsider.

We have such limited info on 2006-2009 that we can't be sure Montagna's efforts in Montreal didn't begin before his deportation. We just don't know and I wouldn't rule anything out. Cicale said he was told by Baldo Amato (Montagna's compare and a close friend to the Montreal Sicilians) that Sal Montagna had collected tribute from the Rizzuto crew in Montreal for Basciano and the Rizzutos reluctantly agreed to paying a higher tribute than they'd previously paid.

Murder, though rare, is still a powerful gesture for mafia leaders to make. The Anthony Seccafico situation involved a Bronx soldier murdered for disrespecting leaders of the Bronx crew, which both Mancuso and Montagna had been members of. The murder happened shortly after Montagna went to Montreal and before Mancuso was ID'd as official boss (though as already said, he may have been elected earlier). Most coverage of the murder agrees that it was a sanctioned mafia murder from within the Bonanno family, so we can reasonably speculate that the Seccafico murder plot was in motion prior to the murder itself and may have been approved by Montagna and/or Mancuso. This public murder would certainly establish their leadership as a force to be reckoned with.

Shortly after the Montagna murder in 2011, Gary Valenti recorded Vincent Asaro saying Montagna was "one of the bosses from New York." Could mean anything -- Montagna was former acting boss (the one thing we know for sure), he was still considered part of the Bonanno admin/leadership, or something else. Asaro met with Jack Bonventre to discuss this and Valenti (an associate) apparently didn't/couldn't attend. Coincidentally, Montagna, Asaro, and Bonventre are all of Castellammarese heritage.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by JeremyTheJew » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:10 pm

I think Montagna had to have strong influences to still deal with the high levels of Montreal and possibly try and take over.

Bonanno - Canada - Buffalo

To me allways shows a connection

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by B. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:30 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:48 pm
B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:00 pm The missing link in these discussions is always Salvatore Montagna. He was with the DeFilippo crew alongside Mancuso, then took over as acting boss when Mancuso went to prison. Mancuso emerges as official boss following Montagna's deportation (whether that was simply when it was confirmed or if he was elected earlier is unknown). We know in hindsight that Montagna was an aggressive mafia leader (both in politics and violence) and was more of a Queens / Brooklyn / Long Island figure even though he reported to a Bronx crew, but either way the Bronx crew appears to have maintained/solidified their power when Montagna was acting boss and that 2006-2009 period is when they would have started the initial rebuilding process.

Cicale said that Mancuso had more or less usurped the leadership following Basciano's incarceration and pushed the Basciano faction out, so it's likely that Montagna took over with Mancuso's blessing. New info on that period could easily change everything though the circumstantial info suggests that Montagna's three year run paved the way for Mancuso's official election as boss.
After he gets deported, who had NY, if not Montagna?
Did he use a proxy? Like, An acting for the Acting? Was that too much? That would have made Montagna, what exactly? A capo, with no crew?A Boss in exile? It's never been clear to me why he would have had to abdicate upon deportation, just pull a Chin and assign a Messagrio or whatever, right?


Borello said, Mancuso got the chair from Basciano, does
that mean Montagna acted on his behalf?

Or did he more or less do the same thing as Basciano and Mancuso, and do his own thing once he got the slot?

Was Mancuso in Bascianos crew? Or did he just pick another tough guy from the Bronx? It would seem the power flowed from Massino, to Basciano, to Mancuso.

Big question then, was Mancuso behind Montagnas moves?

Did anyone ask Borello about the Bonnanos Sicilian faction? Or if the NY guys interact with Montreal?
Maybe ask if Montreal answers to NY again?
It's a good question what position Montagna had after his deportation. I have mentioned that same idea before, that he may not have immediately given up his position as acting boss when he was deported. He may have used that position to try and influence Montreal for all we know.

Borello's take on Mancuso and Basciano goes against other information from member informants who reported the transition between Basciano and Mancuso. The two groups were in conflict by that time. I appreciate Borello answering questions but he wasn't in a position to know about that situation.

Basciano was given his own crew separate from the DeFilippo crew in the early 2000s. Mancuso and Montagna remained soldiers under DeFilippo and it appears both of them took turns running that crew after DeFilippo went away. They were not part of the Basciano faction. Circumstantial evidence and knowledge of the relationships suggests that Montagna acted in Mancuso's interests and it would be interesting to know if Mancuso explicitly supported Montagna's moves in Montreal. Based on what has been written about Mancuso, as a feared and aggressive figure, we could speculate that he felt members of the Bonanno family in Montreal must fall in line with his leadership, but who knows without a source clearly outlining the situation.

Re: Mancuso / Cammarano side

by Mason_dixon » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:17 am

Yeah Cammaranos father was an important man in the family. Zancocoio sorry about spelling had a huge profitable book. The grimaldis has big books. I would think Mancuso is going to have to bring them back into the fold at some point. Maybe they are just in a time out so to speak. Seems like the power of the Bonnanos has been in the Bronx tho since Goregous. Maybe not the money but the most violent crew.

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