Massino’s Rebuild/Era

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Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by B. » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:19 pm

Here's an angle you don't see discussed much that might be relevant here.

Sources have mentioned that when there is a change in the boss position, all of the captains are technically demoted from their position until the new boss is elected and re-confirms them or appoints others in their place. Scarpa mentioned it when Joe Colombo took over and Stefano Magaddino was recorded discussing it with the Bonanno family before DiGregorio was formally elected. When Magaddino discussed it, he makes it sound like one incentive for a family to move forward on electing a new boss is because the rest of the family leadership loses standing/position until the new boss is made. Not only that, but he says the "borgata" itself can't be recognized until the boss is in place.

While we know families don't actually break up when a boss dies, Magaddino specifically says you must "form the borgata" by electing a new boss, implying that a family is seen as unformed until the boss is elected. He talks similarly about the Gambino family after Anastasia died, where he says the Commission appointed consigliere Carlo Gambino to acting boss in order to keep the borgata together prior to election. This could tell us more about some of the families that split apart early on in US mafia history.

It is just a formality as we know in most cases there is continuity in crews/captains between different bosses and most demotions/promotions of captains during that time are limited and circumstantial (though not always). It also appears to be something that died out, as we don't have more recent sources who mention captains having to be reappointed by a new boss. There is also some confusion and maybe even contradiction in it, as captains were still used to collect the votes of the membership and meet to make the final vote on the new boss, so whatever formal "demotion" takes place in the interrim before a new boss is elected is fairly meaningless within the organization, but it could still have an impact on their standing in the eyes of other families. It was no doubt politically advantageous to have an official boss in place.

It does reinforce the importance of the boss in traditional mafia politics, though. We also have CIs and CWs who say that a family's political power depends on the individual boss regardless of the family's size/scope. There are other factors, but members themselves are in agreement that having an official boss in high standing is a significant resource in their favor not only for the obvious practical reasons but because the mafia traditionally had rules that reinforce the authority and necessity of a boss. Sources have also made it clear that all bosses are traditionally considered equal in mafia politics, though we know how that plays out in reality.

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Angelo Santino » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:15 pm

Wiseguy wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:28 pm That would obviously be a labor-intensive endeavor. Personally, I don't have the time to get that far into the weeds. I'm content to look over past indictments (be it the last 10 or 20 years), as well as other sources, to identify general trends.
Indictments since 2000 would be a great start in understanding the modern mafia. But we'd need indictments & conviction rates. I don't want to go down to the individual member level, but perhaps add up who was indicted and also convicted in this racket or that racket. That data would be invaluable to start. But that's fully up to you, you still likely have a job that you're working (hope you and your family are safe.)
Wiseguy wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:28 pm I think it would make sense on a certain level. Associate estimates vary so widely because the number expands or contracts on who's estimating and the strictness or looseness of the definition they are using. And obviously not all associates are created equal.
What categories would split them up into? I think we'd need on-record associates Italian, on-record associates non-Ital, relatives, business partners, etc. By means complete.

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Wiseguy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:28 pm

Chris Christie wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:08 pm1 I don't disagree at all with your ranking system (I don't follow the recent stuff), but for such a system to withstand scrutiny we'd need to input data into a fact sheet and apply them into the crunch to determine our statistical findings. For instance, every conviction and what those convictions were for, tally them up and input them along with total membership for family to get percentages. The Chedrool Crime Family has 200 members, 50 of them were convicted this year for mopery, so 25% of their members go around doing that. That would be quite an endeavor for every category.
That would obviously be a labor-intensive endeavor. Personally, I don't have the time to get that far into the weeds. I'm content to look over past indictments (be it the last 10 or 20 years), as well as other sources, to identify general trends.
3 I want to ask you, what are your thoughts on splitting "associates" up into different categories. How would you split that up?
I think it would make sense on a certain level. Associate estimates vary so widely because the number expands or contracts on who's estimating and the strictness or looseness of the definition they are using. And obviously not all associates are created equal.

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Angelo Santino » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:08 pm

Wiseguy wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:32 am
Chris Christie wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:26 pmPower means different things to different people (inside and outside, close and far away). The Genovese's 300+ membership (whatever the number) would win in the Most Membership if that's what we're going by. The Bonanno's international reach into Canada might mean that to others if we're considering territory and so forth. We'd need to establish categories for everything ranging from Membership down to individual rackets (drugs, loansharking, gambling etc) and lay out who has more influence in each set category. Given the fluidity of the Mafia as well as the fact that we don't have complete information, we'd have to go by published/official sources and develop a methodology for measuring.. I'd take my hat off for every attempted such an endeavor.
I don't think much research is needed, in terms of power, when it comes to the American LCN today. Seems to be a general consensus across the board about which family is the strongest.

To you point about specifying certain categories, I imagine it would look something like below.

Gambling/Loansharking
#1 Genovese
#2 Gambino
#3-Tie Lucchese/Bonanno
#5 Colombo


Drug Trafficking
#1 Gambino
#2 Bonanno
#3-Tie Genovese/Lucchese
#5 Colombo


Labor/Business Racketeering
#1 Genovese
#2 Gambino
#3 Lucchese
#4 Colombo
#5 Bonanno


There are methods that government/law enforcement (as well as think tanks) use to determine the strength and threat posed by organized crime groups. Below is the SLEIPNIR Assessment Tool Canadian authories use.

19. Corruption
18. Violence
17. Infiltration
16. Expertise
15. Sophistication
14. Subversion
13. Strategy
12. Discipline
11. Insulation
10. Intelligence Use
9. Multiple Enterprises
8. Mobility
7. Stability
6. Scope
5. Monopoly
4. Group Cohesiveness
3. Continuity
2. Links to Other Organized Crime Groups
1. Links to Criminal Extremist Groups

http://dustinkmacdonald.com/sleipnir-assessment-tool/



Insight Crime explained how they determined the top 10 criminal groups in Mexico/South America in 2019 -

gamechangers-2019-latin-americas-top-10-criminal-groups.jpg

https://www.insightcrime.org/news/analy ... al-groups/
1 I don't disagree at all with your ranking system (I don't follow the recent stuff), but for such a system to withstand scrutiny we'd need to input data into a fact sheet and apply them into the crunch to determine our statistical findings. For instance, every conviction and what those convictions were for, tally them up and input them along with total membership for family to get percentages. The Chedrool Crime Family has 200 members, 50 of them were convicted this year for mopery, so 25% of their members go around doing that. That would be quite an endeavor for every category.

2 I think they established a good grading system to use as magnetic north.

3 I want to ask you, what are your thoughts on splitting "associates" up into different categories. How would you split that up?

Thank you for posting that.

(If this whole conversation continues I'll separate it from this thread. Unless someone thinks I should do so now?)

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Wiseguy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:32 am

Chris Christie wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:26 pmPower means different things to different people (inside and outside, close and far away). The Genovese's 300+ membership (whatever the number) would win in the Most Membership if that's what we're going by. The Bonanno's international reach into Canada might mean that to others if we're considering territory and so forth. We'd need to establish categories for everything ranging from Membership down to individual rackets (drugs, loansharking, gambling etc) and lay out who has more influence in each set category. Given the fluidity of the Mafia as well as the fact that we don't have complete information, we'd have to go by published/official sources and develop a methodology for measuring.. I'd take my hat off for every attempted such an endeavor.
I don't think much research is needed, in terms of power, when it comes to the American LCN today. Seems to be a general consensus across the board about which family is the strongest.

To you point about specifying certain categories, I imagine it would look something like below.

Gambling/Loansharking
#1 Genovese
#2 Gambino
#3-Tie Lucchese/Bonanno
#5 Colombo


Drug Trafficking
#1 Gambino
#2 Bonanno
#3-Tie Genovese/Lucchese
#5 Colombo


Labor/Business Racketeering
#1 Genovese
#2 Gambino
#3 Lucchese
#4 Colombo
#5 Bonanno


There are methods that government/law enforcement (as well as think tanks) use to determine the strength and threat posed by organized crime groups. Below is the SLEIPNIR Assessment Tool Canadian authories use.

19. Corruption
18. Violence
17. Infiltration
16. Expertise
15. Sophistication
14. Subversion
13. Strategy
12. Discipline
11. Insulation
10. Intelligence Use
9. Multiple Enterprises
8. Mobility
7. Stability
6. Scope
5. Monopoly
4. Group Cohesiveness
3. Continuity
2. Links to Other Organized Crime Groups
1. Links to Criminal Extremist Groups

http://dustinkmacdonald.com/sleipnir-assessment-tool/



Insight Crime explained how they determined the top 10 criminal groups in Mexico/South America in 2019 -
gamechangers-2019-latin-americas-top-10-criminal-groups.jpg
https://www.insightcrime.org/news/analy ... al-groups/

Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by CabriniGreen » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:15 am

[

wrote:In The Last Mafioso, Fratianno fretted about the amount of "deadhead" members and estimated that either only 20% of total membership or 20 members in a particular family- LA or Chi (I disremember) were capable of actually "doing work" (hits.) Regardless of whether people agree/disagree with those estimates, he was of the opinion that actual killers were in the minority.

I would actually go so far as to say that's a fact in the streets, I've seen it personally....

It's been echoed by mobsters like Gravano and Caramandi too...

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by gohnjotti » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:37 pm

Chris Christie wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:08 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:04 pm In fairness the Stanfa faction did win briefly. Ciancaglini was dead, Merlino was in jail and the rest went into hiding. The portion of street tax that the Merlino faction controlled was taken over by Stanfa. It was only after the Feds swooped the whole bunch off the streets that the Merlino crew emerged.


Pogo
Yes, I mentioned this a page ago, I guess Merlino won by default since Stanfa got locked up? But before that Stanfa won because Merlino was locked up. It's like Kill Bill opening scene.
The only sure-fire winners of egregious mob violence are the FBI.

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Angelo Santino » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:08 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:04 pm In fairness the Stanfa faction did win briefly. Ciancaglini was dead, Merlino was in jail and the rest went into hiding. The portion of street tax that the Merlino faction controlled was taken over by Stanfa. It was only after the Feds swooped the whole bunch off the streets that the Merlino crew emerged.


Pogo
Yes, I mentioned this a page ago, I guess Merlino won by default since Stanfa got locked up? But before that Stanfa won because Merlino was locked up. It's like Kill Bill opening scene.

Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Angelo Santino » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:05 pm

Lupara wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:54 pm
Chris Christie wrote:Montreal maybe? Montagna was winning an unwinnable war until he was betrayed by Desjardins who also betrayed the Rizzutos?
Unwinnable in what way? Most of the Rizzuto people were in jail but that war (it was rather an internal housecleaning) was fought on a political level. And Montagna was politically the strongest at that time. Desjardins was perhaps militarily the strongest. But in this war there where no real winners if you look at in what state it left the mob over there. And ironically, it can all be traced back to Massino.
Unwinnable by public perception, including myself. When Montaga was deported he was "a man without a family" during a time after Rizzuto's conviction and the release of the 6th Family which had everyone debating to what extent they surpassed New York City. That's just the external, the internal I know less of because we have no members speaking of it, but I would imagine even with the convictions, Rizzuto's people were still in power, including Nick Rizzuto whom everyone had pegged as a Canadian Tony Accardo while Montaga had no one under him, which lead to his alliance with Desjardins. Had Montaga won, he'd be an example that size don't matter since I think we can agree that the city of Montreal had more Rizzuto allies than Montagna. But he didn't and Rizzuto came home and died. We'll call it draw? :D

Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Pogo The Clown » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:04 pm

In fairness the Stanfa faction did win briefly. Ciancaglini was dead, Merlino was in jail and the rest went into hiding. The portion of street tax that the Merlino faction controlled was taken over by Stanfa. It was only after the Feds swooped the whole bunch off the streets that the Merlino crew emerged.


Pogo

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Lupara » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:01 pm


gohnjotti wrote:
Lupara wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:41 pm
gohnjotti wrote:How about we narrow down the definition of power, so we stop arguing over nothing. There’s monetary power, “militaristic” power (a crime group’s capacity to kill), organisational power (the lines of communication between admin and capo), etc., etc., etc.

The Gambinos of the 1990s were both more powerful and less powerful than the Bonannos of the 1990s, in different ways.
In the world of the Mafia where people often rise to power through violence numbers are everything. The Corleonesi are the classic example. It proved that in such an environment monetary power was no match to militaristic power.

In any case, I think the Gambinos have always been more powerful in both subcategories.

One can make a good case the Bonannos had more political power at the time.
I don't know who had more militaristic power (it feels like we're talking about world diplomacy here [emoji38] )
In effect we are. [emoji3]

Anyway, I'm guilty of derailing this thread so if Soliai or any other mod wants to enact their political power on me I can only accept those consequences...

Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Angelo Santino » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:58 pm

gohnjotti wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:48 pm
Lupara wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:41 pm
gohnjotti wrote:How about we narrow down the definition of power, so we stop arguing over nothing. There’s monetary power, “militaristic” power (a crime group’s capacity to kill), organisational power (the lines of communication between admin and capo), etc., etc., etc.

The Gambinos of the 1990s were both more powerful and less powerful than the Bonannos of the 1990s, in different ways.
In the world of the Mafia where people often rise to power through violence numbers are everything. The Corleonesi are the classic example. It proved that in such an environment monetary power was no match to militaristic power.

In any case, I think the Gambinos have always been more powerful in both subcategories.

One can make a good case the Bonannos had more political power at the time.
I don't know who had more militaristic power (it feels like we're talking about world diplomacy here :lol: ) but the Bonannos had some serious hitters, and could carry out hits pretty efficiently, no? I wouldn't say the Gambinos vastly outmatched the Bonannos in terms of "military," because in New York it's less about capacity for violence and more about capacity for getting away with violence. I'm not an expert on the various hit-teams and murders that were going on for either of these families during that time, however. You would have to go to Wiseguy for that, I think he made a list of hits during the 1990s.
In The Last Mafioso, Fratianno fretted about the amount of "deadhead" members and estimated that either only 20% of total membership or 20 members in a particular family- LA or Chi (I disremember) were capable of actually "doing work" (hits.) Regardless of whether people agree/disagree with those estimates, he was of the opinion that actual killers were in the minority.

Lupara is right, violence is the power that usually wins which explains why Capone, Merlino, Orena, Maranzano etc won. But when you zoom out, the mob as an organization isn't designed or set up for war. Unlike the cartels or even street gangs they don't have their own combat units for a full on engagement. Like you said, the mob best conducts itself in the shadows. Most mob murders involved getting someone alone and shooting them up close as opposed to Sparks Steak House/St Valentines.

Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Lupara » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:54 pm

Chris Christie wrote:Montreal maybe? Montagna was winning an unwinnable war until he was betrayed by Desjardins who also betrayed the Rizzutos?
Unwinnable in what way? Most of the Rizzuto people were in jail but that war (it was rather an internal housecleaning) was fought on a political level. And Montagna was politically the strongest at that time. Desjardins was perhaps militarily the strongest. But in this war there where no real winners if you look at in what state it left the mob over there. And ironically, it can all be traced back to Massino.

Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by gohnjotti » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:48 pm

Lupara wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:41 pm
gohnjotti wrote:How about we narrow down the definition of power, so we stop arguing over nothing. There’s monetary power, “militaristic” power (a crime group’s capacity to kill), organisational power (the lines of communication between admin and capo), etc., etc., etc.

The Gambinos of the 1990s were both more powerful and less powerful than the Bonannos of the 1990s, in different ways.
In the world of the Mafia where people often rise to power through violence numbers are everything. The Corleonesi are the classic example. It proved that in such an environment monetary power was no match to militaristic power.

In any case, I think the Gambinos have always been more powerful in both subcategories.

One can make a good case the Bonannos had more political power at the time.
I don't know who had more militaristic power (it feels like we're talking about world diplomacy here :lol: ) but the Bonannos had some serious hitters, and could carry out hits pretty efficiently, no? I wouldn't say the Gambinos vastly outmatched the Bonannos in terms of "military," because in New York it's less about capacity for violence and more about capacity for getting away with violence. I'm not an expert on the various hit-teams and murders that were going on for either of these families during that time, however. You would have to go to Wiseguy for that, I think he made a list of hits during the 1990s.

Re: RE: Re: Massino’s Rebuild/Era

by Lupara » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:41 pm


gohnjotti wrote:How about we narrow down the definition of power, so we stop arguing over nothing. There’s monetary power, “militaristic” power (a crime group’s capacity to kill), organisational power (the lines of communication between admin and capo), etc., etc., etc.

The Gambinos of the 1990s were both more powerful and less powerful than the Bonannos of the 1990s, in different ways.
In the world of the Mafia where people often rise to power through violence numbers are everything. The Corleonesi are the classic example. It proved that in such an environment monetary power was no match to militaristic power.

In any case, I think the Gambinos have always been more powerful in both subcategories.

One can make a good case the Bonannos had more political power at the time.

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