by Wiseguy » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:37 am
Chris Christie wrote:I don't put much emphasis on the "current or speculated numbers" of members. For every active Facchiano there's probably 15-20 inactive Manganos. Add that to the incarcerated members as well as the members who just 'dabble,' or work a full time job (not a no-show but an actual job) and rarely check in, each family's manpower is significantly overstated.
I go by total figures because the number of active guys on the street is continually in a state of flux. That said, it wouldn't surprise if
as many as half of members and associates are either inactive or in prison at any given time. But it's nowhere near a ratio of 1:15-20, which may simply be hyperbole on your part.
In the 1970's there was a major drop off as elder members died and the ranks were replenished. With that came a new generational world view: Italian American vs the old Sicilian and Calabrese wings that many of those families had, it all but ceased in the decade of the 70's. In another twenty years there'll be another drop off of dying members. Who takes their place? Looking at the younger members today and their virtual irrelevance in terms of city and state crime, I can't imagine it'll be any better when it's their turn.
Not sure what you mean by "their virtual irrelevance in terms of city and state crime." Younger LCN members are as relevant as others in the underworld - LCN or otherwise. Some are earners, others not. We should also keep in mind that the LCN chose to close the books for decades, which led to the "major drop off" of elder members and replenishing with new ones in the 1970's. That isn't the case today. The NY families have shown they still have the recruiting pool to replace members who have died and keep their respective memberships steady for at least the last 20 years now.
Chris Christie wrote:In that, the scope of organized crime has change. Back in the 70's you could make a decent living hijackin trucks, does that happen today? There were also various construction sites where wiseguys sat around in chairs collecting pay, does that happen today? With modernization, these things cannot occur to the degree they once did. Control of unions, mass extortion, local politics they have all been locked out of. Legalized online gambling is so easy why go to a local bookmaker or rather, what high roller is going to go to a local bookmaker? And as for nicknames, people have to use their real names to register for anything than ever before in history so the staying under the radar days are done.
High-jacking trucks is largely passe, though the LCN is still fairly active in fencing of stolen goods. No show and no work jobs still exist and have been in part of mob construction cases over the past 10-15 years, including the Luccheses (Crea bust) and several LIUNA locals and other unions, as well as the Genovese and Colombos (Muscarella, Cacace bust) and the Operating Engineers Union, to name a few cases. While the LCN's overall union influence has been vastly diminished, again mainly on a national level, it's been significantly less so in the Tri-State area. In addition to the cases I mentioned above, have you paid attention to the cases involving the Carpenters Union? The ILA? Or certain Teamsters locals for that matter? Have you paid attention to the size and money involved in the mob's bookmaking and loansharking rings in the region? Millions of dollars that make up the "financial bedrock" of the mob. There is no shortage of bettors who don't want to use a credit card to bet and deal with a faceless internet company. They would prefer to place their bet online and settle up face to face with a bookie they know. Wide spread extortion? Not sure how you define "wide spread" but it still happens. One Lucchese crew was busted, in part, for extorting local business under the threat of arson. We've seen several cases of mob shakedowns of strip clubs in recent years. Often the tactics are not so blatant. It can involve "encouraging" a business to buy a product from a mobbed up company. And labor union-related extortion is still quite common as we've also seen in recent years.
Don't get me wrong, there will always be street crime, but "control" of the street in almost every city the blacks and Latinos have largely taken dominance. Italians are holding onto what they can, but go back in history, it's the equivalent to the last remaining Irish residents on Elizabeth St in 1893. Demographics have always played a part. And the scope of Italian neighborhoods have changed. "Bronx Tale" was realistic enough, you could shoot someone in an Italian neighborhood on the street in broad daylight and literally nobody would speak to the police. Would have happen today in ANY neighborhood in NYC?
The Mafia's still there, but in a much diminished form. The FBI defines it as "organized" but there are other groups importing narcotics from south america which are international offenses. How many mafia members today even come close to international? They exist, but they are the exception, not the norm.
With all due respect, Christie, I think you spend so much time studying the LCN of the early 20th century that you don't bother to study the LCN of the 21st century. While nobody would disagree it's been significantly weakened, especially on a national level, you underestimate the mob - at least in NY.
The FBI still differentiates the LCN from other groups by comparing "organized crime" to "criminal enterprises." As long as it can find recruits (and the NY families do) the hierarchical structure (what makes crime organized and lasting) of the LCN provides it both longevity and the ability to withstand repeated attacks from law enforcement. What other crime group has lasted anywhere as long? When was the last time you heard of a bust involving the Flying Dragons or Ghost Shadows in NY? After the big bust of the Cuban Corporation in 2004, I'll be surprised if there's another. The Albanian Rudaj group was wiped out in a single indictment. The Russians never fulfilled the predictions about them 20 years ago. The Mexican and South American DTO's are international because their leaders are based outside the US and they have to smuggle drugs across national borders. The LCN is mainly a domestic phenomenon, largely in the Northeast today. But where are the Medellin or Cali cartels now? And how long before the big Mexican cartels also fracture? Blacks and Latinos have taken "control" of the street? Certainly in their own neighborhoods. And they are often the most associated with street level drug trafficking. But the LCN moved beyond "the neighborhood" or "the block" a long time ago. It's why all the talk about the Italian neighborhood disappearing, at least in part, misses the point. The demographics have not played out as originally thought. If so, the LCN should have disappeared years ago. It's happened much more slowly, especially in NY, than many predicted.
I don't know, maybe without the ability or desire to research and examine mob cases over the past 10-15 years, like I have, it's hard to get a sense of the overall presence and activity it still has - chiefly in the Greater NY Area, but also in other parts of the Northeast, Chicago, and South Florida to a lesser extent. Without the ability to look at things collectively, one really is left to just go from the latest headline or case that is in their memory.
[quote="Chris Christie"]I don't put much emphasis on the "current or speculated numbers" of members. For every active Facchiano there's probably 15-20 inactive Manganos. Add that to the incarcerated members as well as the members who just 'dabble,' or work a full time job (not a no-show but an actual job) and rarely check in, each family's manpower is significantly overstated.[/quote]
I go by total figures because the number of active guys on the street is continually in a state of flux. That said, it wouldn't surprise if [i]as many[/i] as half of members and associates are either inactive or in prison at any given time. But it's nowhere near a ratio of 1:15-20, which may simply be hyperbole on your part.
[quote]In the 1970's there was a major drop off as elder members died and the ranks were replenished. With that came a new generational world view: Italian American vs the old Sicilian and Calabrese wings that many of those families had, it all but ceased in the decade of the 70's. In another twenty years there'll be another drop off of dying members. Who takes their place? Looking at the younger members today and their virtual irrelevance in terms of city and state crime, I can't imagine it'll be any better when it's their turn.[/quote]
Not sure what you mean by "their virtual irrelevance in terms of city and state crime." Younger LCN members are as relevant as others in the underworld - LCN or otherwise. Some are earners, others not. We should also keep in mind that the LCN chose to close the books for decades, which led to the "major drop off" of elder members and replenishing with new ones in the 1970's. That isn't the case today. The NY families have shown they still have the recruiting pool to replace members who have died and keep their respective memberships steady for at least the last 20 years now.
[quote="Chris Christie"]In that, the scope of organized crime has change. Back in the 70's you could make a decent living hijackin trucks, does that happen today? There were also various construction sites where wiseguys sat around in chairs collecting pay, does that happen today? With modernization, these things cannot occur to the degree they once did. Control of unions, mass extortion, local politics they have all been locked out of. Legalized online gambling is so easy why go to a local bookmaker or rather, what high roller is going to go to a local bookmaker? And as for nicknames, people have to use their real names to register for anything than ever before in history so the staying under the radar days are done.[/quote]
High-jacking trucks is largely passe, though the LCN is still fairly active in fencing of stolen goods. No show and no work jobs still exist and have been in part of mob construction cases over the past 10-15 years, including the Luccheses (Crea bust) and several LIUNA locals and other unions, as well as the Genovese and Colombos (Muscarella, Cacace bust) and the Operating Engineers Union, to name a few cases. While the LCN's overall union influence has been vastly diminished, again mainly on a national level, it's been significantly less so in the Tri-State area. In addition to the cases I mentioned above, have you paid attention to the cases involving the Carpenters Union? The ILA? Or certain Teamsters locals for that matter? Have you paid attention to the size and money involved in the mob's bookmaking and loansharking rings in the region? Millions of dollars that make up the "financial bedrock" of the mob. There is no shortage of bettors who don't want to use a credit card to bet and deal with a faceless internet company. They would prefer to place their bet online and settle up face to face with a bookie they know. Wide spread extortion? Not sure how you define "wide spread" but it still happens. One Lucchese crew was busted, in part, for extorting local business under the threat of arson. We've seen several cases of mob shakedowns of strip clubs in recent years. Often the tactics are not so blatant. It can involve "encouraging" a business to buy a product from a mobbed up company. And labor union-related extortion is still quite common as we've also seen in recent years.
[quote]Don't get me wrong, there will always be street crime, but "control" of the street in almost every city the blacks and Latinos have largely taken dominance. Italians are holding onto what they can, but go back in history, it's the equivalent to the last remaining Irish residents on Elizabeth St in 1893. Demographics have always played a part. And the scope of Italian neighborhoods have changed. "Bronx Tale" was realistic enough, you could shoot someone in an Italian neighborhood on the street in broad daylight and literally nobody would speak to the police. Would have happen today in ANY neighborhood in NYC?
The Mafia's still there, but in a much diminished form. The FBI defines it as "organized" but there are other groups importing narcotics from south america which are international offenses. How many mafia members today even come close to international? They exist, but they are the exception, not the norm.[/quote]
With all due respect, Christie, I think you spend so much time studying the LCN of the early 20th century that you don't bother to study the LCN of the 21st century. While nobody would disagree it's been significantly weakened, especially on a national level, you underestimate the mob - at least in NY.
The FBI still differentiates the LCN from other groups by comparing "organized crime" to "criminal enterprises." As long as it can find recruits (and the NY families do) the hierarchical structure (what makes crime organized and lasting) of the LCN provides it both longevity and the ability to withstand repeated attacks from law enforcement. What other crime group has lasted anywhere as long? When was the last time you heard of a bust involving the Flying Dragons or Ghost Shadows in NY? After the big bust of the Cuban Corporation in 2004, I'll be surprised if there's another. The Albanian Rudaj group was wiped out in a single indictment. The Russians never fulfilled the predictions about them 20 years ago. The Mexican and South American DTO's are international because their leaders are based outside the US and they have to smuggle drugs across national borders. The LCN is mainly a domestic phenomenon, largely in the Northeast today. But where are the Medellin or Cali cartels now? And how long before the big Mexican cartels also fracture? Blacks and Latinos have taken "control" of the street? Certainly in their own neighborhoods. And they are often the most associated with street level drug trafficking. But the LCN moved beyond "the neighborhood" or "the block" a long time ago. It's why all the talk about the Italian neighborhood disappearing, at least in part, misses the point. The demographics have not played out as originally thought. If so, the LCN should have disappeared years ago. It's happened much more slowly, especially in NY, than many predicted.
I don't know, maybe without the ability or desire to research and examine mob cases over the past 10-15 years, like I have, it's hard to get a sense of the overall presence and activity it still has - chiefly in the Greater NY Area, but also in other parts of the Northeast, Chicago, and South Florida to a lesser extent. Without the ability to look at things collectively, one really is left to just go from the latest headline or case that is in their memory.