THE BLACK HAND FORUM

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:35 am

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:10 pm

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:03 am

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?

Cmon guy. Now your not being real here. A non entity and unofficially boss? Gotti was THE boss. Everybody reconized it. How was he any different from vito genovese? Who himself brought more heat to the westside than anybody before. Because a the don Apalachia was a scandal that forced the j. Edgar hoovers to take off the dresses and makeup and put on them big boy pants and start surveying cosa nostra 24/7. That happened because a vito. Killing little augie pizzano while he was getting his cock sucked by a famous broad. Wacking out the bender. Getting busted because he sat down with spics involved in the drug world who testified against him.He broke his own rule. Dont talk to nobody you dont know. Gotti had nothing to do with the colombo war. That was all junior. Vic and gas was already out to lunch. They was gonna kill buddy no matter what. Old timers had the benefit a not being targets by government when they was young. Had they all been around when the r.i.c.o. was around you would a seen a lot more ratting.

JIGGS

IMO Gotti was protected by his celebrity status , His constant insulation wherever he went (His huge entourage) and by his absolute protection from the Feds and LE everywhere he went , In the streets , At home , And everywhere else, His constant public meetings of his entire family and his totally unsanctioned killing of a major boss and high level Commission member and leader . He talked of LCN and the rules but followed none ! He set a precedent where no one had to follow rules and everyone become famous and pose for the cameras , He told Sammy the people love him/Them. By Gotti doing what he did everyone wanted to be famous and the celebrity gangster was truly born , After and during Gotti every kid and wannabe from NY to Scandinavia thought it was the norm to come outta the shadows and be seen and heard always , Dress the part , Act the part , Flash your cash and your lifestyle .Guys that truly lived and breathed LCN 100% , Guys like Sonny black who fucked up and went in and died like real true men, or Johnny Keys Simone who took his shoes off kneeled down and died like a man were the embodiment of LCN a Real true man and Gangster till the end with Honor and tradition and respect ! Gotti spewed total BS and acted like some street corner thug animal with no respect or honor and was not LCN ! It took over 20 years to stabilize and get back to real LCN and live in the shadows today without fame and headlines and the fraternal secret organization it was and is today . Gotti reminds me of some Bonnie and Clyde type figure and set off a chain of events whether direct or indirectly where something that took 100 years to build was destroyed and put out on front st. and the covers of tabloids worldwide. Castellano mightve not been liked but he was a leading Commission member and stuck to the rules , Not in every sense but there was Tradition honor respect and secretiveness . I'm not a fan of either one . IMO Gigante was the embodiment of LCN and gangsterism and his power and prestige along with his leadership abilities are 2nd to none which remain intact today

I disagree totaly. You make it seem like the gotti was the only guy who ever had an entourage smiled for the cameras or was public enemy the #1. Do you know pauly hamm? Luchesse family? harlem shot caller. Guy would show up with like 13 guys to a cafe where they all stood outside and he was the only one eating inside. And they all looked the part. Nobody said nothing. That was when the cosa nostra owned the democratic machine. 59. 60. Capone. luciano. Costello. Adonis. Moreti. Anastasia. giancana. Joe gallo. COlombo. franzese. Gambino. Galante. angelo ponte. Even castellano. ALL celebrity gangsters. Whether they invited it or not. It takes two. Gotti didnt invent nothing. Gotti aint a public relation bonanza if the fake news was'nt in on it willing and able. The way to go out of that life is how gambino went. In bed in his sleep. Not like sonny black. Or john simone. or the gotti. Who died handcuffed to a bed chokined on his own vomit. were they tough guys for not begging for mercy. Yeah. But they died like dogs. Theres no honor in any a that. Sonny black was no different than gotti. Sonny was going to make a fed. If gotti had done that you would call him an idiot. Gotti was exactly what the street life was about. Brash bold and I dont give a fuck. Just like all them other celebrities in cosa nostra. Including chin. Its all make believe bullshit. The honor and all the other true lcn horseshit. you either an outlaw or you aint. Gotti took his sentence never ratted held on to the throne was alone 23 hours a day and died saying fuck you. How is that any less than simone taking off his fucking shoes and kneeling or sonny black banging his chest and demanding he be shot in the heart? Johnny cokes was a tough guy. What are you gonna do now tough guy to mike cigars? Thats what johnny keyes should a done. Fuck all a you and fuck big paul. And take off his shoes and toss it at them. It may have been a secret society in sicily. But once you come here and start making millions off construction the garbage the dope. It aint a secret no more.

JIGGS

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:10 pm

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:03 am

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?

Cmon guy. Now your not being real here. A non entity and unofficially boss? Gotti was THE boss. Everybody reconized it. How was he any different from vito genovese? Who himself brought more heat to the westside than anybody before. Because a the don Apalachia was a scandal that forced the j. Edgar hoovers to take off the dresses and makeup and put on them big boy pants and start surveying cosa nostra 24/7. That happened because a vito. Killing little augie pizzano while he was getting his cock sucked by a famous broad. Wacking out the bender. Getting busted because he sat down with spics involved in the drug world who testified against him.He broke his own rule. Dont talk to nobody you dont know. Gotti had nothing to do with the colombo war. That was all junior. Vic and gas was already out to lunch. They was gonna kill buddy no matter what. Old timers had the benefit a not being targets by government when they was young. Had they all been around when the r.i.c.o. was around you would a seen a lot more ratting.

JIGGS

IMO Gotti was protected by his celebrity status , His constant insulation wherever he went (His huge entourage) and by his absolute protection from the Feds and LE everywhere he went , In the streets , At home , And everywhere else, His constant public meetings of his entire family and his totally unsanctioned killing of a major boss and high level Commission member and leader . He talked of LCN and the rules but followed none ! He set a precedent where no one had to follow rules and everyone become famous and pose for the cameras , He told Sammy the people love him/Them. By Gotti doing what he did everyone wanted to be famous and the celebrity gangster was truly born , After and during Gotti every kid and wannabe from NY to Scandinavia thought it was the norm to come outta the shadows and be seen and heard always , Dress the part , Act the part , Flash your cash and your lifestyle .Guys that truly lived and breathed LCN 100% , Guys like Sonny black who fucked up and went in and died like real true men, or Johnny Keys Simone who took his shoes off kneeled down and died like a man were the embodiment of LCN a Real true man and Gangster till the end with Honor and tradition and respect ! Gotti spewed total BS and acted like some street corner thug animal with no respect or honor and was not LCN ! It took over 20 years to stabilize and get back to real LCN and live in the shadows today without fame and headlines and the fraternal secret organization it was and is today . Gotti reminds me of some Bonnie and Clyde type figure and set off a chain of events whether direct or indirectly where something that took 100 years to build was destroyed and put out on front st. and the covers of tabloids worldwide. Castellano mightve not been liked but he was a leading Commission member and stuck to the rules , Not in every sense but there was Tradition honor respect and secretiveness . I'm not a fan of either one . IMO Gigante was the embodiment of LCN and gangsterism and his power and prestige along with his leadership abilities are 2nd to none which remain intact today

bronx wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:23 pmwell said bk

Confederate wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:52 pm Didn't somebody get blown up by mistake instead of Gotti?

bronx wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:32 am 100% percent Confederate..that is what CN supposed to be as cruel as that is, a man is loyal to the life and the boss, angelo and others broke the rules, a pain of death rule.if he kills angelo or defers to another crew in the family to kill him he is cleaning up his mess .mentality is who kills you? ,your good friend ,was paul a hypocrite, yes, he took money from major drug guys, ie. conte ...gambino bros.et al. angelo was the cause of many guys losing their lives because of his big mouth and dumb moves ..he talks on his daughters phone in the house because he does not think the feds would bug that line???? that jerk off was going to run the gambino family? gottis crew then would kill for guys not showing up or saying something about john? all bullshit stories .and taking their lives for that? but he can deal major drugs,kill a commission boss,fuck made guys wife and give her a baby? among many other screw ups? it was "gotti's CN" until he dies . no question gotti was a real gangster, real tough guy, funny how he talked about paul being stupid for talking in his house and getting caught on tape .but angelo did it, he over looked it, when he did it, he took down 50% of his family and created gravano flipping from those tapes, he really thought he was true CN..not so, many guys don't rat and die in prison, black,spanish,AB.'s ,chinese, et.al. remember all those jews that took the electric chair...his dimise was ego ,not the threat of paul maybe killing him..nobody has ever testified or said with direct knowledge paul had marked that crew for death..gotti wanted to be boss ..now..

bronx wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:44 pm the commission counts first foremost their rules are absolute ..anyone can declare themselves boss by killing the boss and having that family majority approval makes them legit? the whole point of killing a boss with or without permission approval is what was put in place for exactly that reason, so guys in a crew can't kill the boss.it leads to anarchy ..a boss could never be safe..that is why the other families join to kill the coup leaders..that is what protects them as bosses. if you don't understand that ,there is nothing else to say..it is clear ..the paul example is not valid..he was agreed apon by the captains, not all ,but was voted in, yes there always are guys whom may not agree who should be boss including.....dellacroce ..but remember his words to gotti on death bed..the boss is the boss..the mafia is not about personality contests ..

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:03 am

Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?

Cmon guy. Now your not being real here. A non entity and unofficially boss? Gotti was THE boss. Everybody reconized it. How was he any different from vito genovese? Who himself brought more heat to the westside than anybody before. Because a the don Apalachia was a scandal that forced the j. Edgar hoovers to take off the dresses and makeup and put on them big boy pants and start surveying cosa nostra 24/7. That happened because a vito. Killing little augie pizzano while he was getting his cock sucked by a famous broad. Wacking out the bender. Getting busted because he sat down with spics involved in the drug world who testified against him.He broke his own rule. Dont talk to nobody you dont know. Gotti had nothing to do with the colombo war. That was all junior. Vic and gas was already out to lunch. They was gonna kill buddy no matter what. Old timers had the benefit a not being targets by government when they was young. Had they all been around when the r.i.c.o. was around you would a seen a lot more ratting.

JIGGS

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:21 pm

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:06 pm

bronx wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:15 pm gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.

If you go by what you say then big paul wasnt the real boss neither. Not everybody in the family reconized his leadership. The Junior persico wasnt real boss either. Look at the shit storm he created. Same with the Vic and gas but in reverse. They would a not had to kill nobody if they was fully in charge. You follow?

JIGGS

Bronx shits out in a day more than you’d know in a lifetime J-pal.

You haven’t yet earned the right to even quote bronx.
You follow?

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:49 pm

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:06 pm

bronx wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:15 pm gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.

If you go by what you say then big paul wasnt the real boss neither. Not everybody in the family reconized his leadership. The Junior persico wasnt real boss either. Look at the shit storm he created. Same with the Vic and gas but in reverse. They would a not had to kill nobody if they was fully in charge. You follow?

JIGGS

I partially agree with Jiggs in that Gotti may not have been supported by the other leaders, but he was the undisputed boss of his own family and that's what matters. If Gotti didn't have the recognition & support of the majority of his family, Chin would've had a much easier time deposing him. At the same time, I get Bklyn21's point that Gotti marked the end of the Commission's perceived dominance, and probably helped the Colombos slip into war. After all, Vic wouldn't have had a leg to stand on during the sit-downs of mid-to-late '91 if he didn't have Gotti's support.