Early Mafia History Discussion

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Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by B. » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:52 pm

Thanks, man.

Another aspect worth mentioning is Pinzolo was a Lower East Side guy with most of his known connections in that area. The Reina family appears to have had little presence there, so that is another pattern Pinzolo broke.

Pinzolo was also in an office leased to Tommy Lucchese at the time of his murder and this was believed to have helped the rebel faction set him up. However, Pinzolo using an office belonging to Lucchese shows that the Gagliano/Lucchese faction went through the motions of supporting Pinzolo when he was elected and ostensibly kept a close relationship to Pinzolo, which lends itself to their need for secrecy before and after the murder.

Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by johnny_scootch » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:44 pm

Really good stuff B.

Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by B. » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:34 pm

Another early figure who continues to be interesting/confusing to me is Bonaventura "Joe" Pinzolo.

- From Serradifalco, Caltanissetta. Few NYC members came from there, with this area filling out much of the early Buffalo and Pittston families. In fact, when Pinzolo arrived to the US he was heading to a relative in Pittston. The Pittston mafia family was already established by this time via mafiosi from Caltanissetta but there is no evidence Pinzolo was connected to local mafia figures or if he stayed in Pittston at all. Coincidentally, Russell Bufalino would become close to the Lucchese family via the garment industry and as a result was at one point suspected of membership in the Luccheses, the same family Pinzolo would become boss of. Another connection worth mentioning is Morello member(?) Tommaso Petto who moved to Pittston during this period, suggesting some continuity/connection between Pittston and the group that would precede the Lucchese family.

- After first arriving in NYC, Pinzolo worked as a bomb-chucker for a "black hand" extortion operation under a Calabrian "gang leader". This group superficially appears to have been an independent mainland group and would suggest Pinzolo was not yet tapped into the mafia network when he arrived in US, though we can't assume anything.

- Married into the Riccobono family in Manhattan, becoming brother-in-law to future Gambino consigliere Giuseppe Riccobono. Marriage was witnessed by Gambino/LA member Marco LiMandri and Pinzolo lived with Joe Riccobono in the late 1910s. The Riccobonos weren't simply a random Sicilian family that ended up with the Gambinos, but influential in the Palermo mafia and part of a tight-knit and influential Palermitani clan with a strong foundation within the early Lupo/D'Aquila family.

- Pinzolo's naturalization was witnessed by Terenzio Armone, father of future Gambino leaders Stephen and Joe Armone (Alfred as well, who some sources say was made). Terenzio Armone was a grocer who hasn't been identified as a member, but his sons and a nephew became high-ranking Gambino members and he witnessed the naturalization of a future mafia boss who was married into an influential D'Aquila/Gambino bloodline that produced many high-ranking members itself, so he was clearly tapped into Manhattan mafia circles. The Armones were from Misilmeri, Palermo province.

- We have little information on Pinzolo in the 1920s, then he shows up as the successor to Tom Reina as boss of the future Gagliano/Lucchese family in 1930. Valachi said that the rebel Gagliano/Lucchese faction was originally a very small minority of the Reina-Pinzolo family and had to keep their opposition to Pinzolo secret even after Pinzolo's murder, as evidenced by their attendance at a meeting of the former Reina membership to determine who killed Pinzolo. This suggests that the majority of the Reina-Pinzolo membership either supported Pinzolo or were indifferent enough not to challenge him. After all, Pinzolo was the official boss.

- Pinzolo is said to have been supported by Masseria, though it isn't clear if Pinzolo was pulled from within the ranks of the Reina membership or jumped over from another family, ala Mineo. Though campaigning and political maneuvering happens behind the scenes, the boss is supposed to be elected and we can see even when an election is predetermined behind the scenes (Joe Colombo, John Gotti), the family must still go through the election process. The secrecy of the Gagliano faction's actions before and after the Pinzolo murder suggests Pinzolo was in fact elected by the membership even if Masseria pulled the strings.

- Giuseppe Morello was still alive and in a leadership position under Masseria at this time, so it is possible Morello still had influence among the Corleonesi of the Reina family. Some sources indicate Morello influenced Masseria's actions during this period, so it isn't unreasonable to believe Morello was a large factor in Pinzolo taking over and receiving support within the former Reina group, though this is only speculation.

Anyway, Pinzolo breaks many of the patterns we see play out among other figures of his stature during the same period. He didn't stay with his paesani, he seems to have gotten his start in NYC under a Calabrian extortionist despite his Sicilian heritage, and he didn't join/stay with the D'Aquila family despite having strong marital and social ties to that family. Definitely an exception to many of the so-called rules, though we are no doubt missing many pieces of his story.

Re: The Caps

by Angelo Santino » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:57 am

scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:22 pm
Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:41 am
Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:32 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:10 am
B. wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 am If I remember right, Dr. Allegra completely overlooked the position of underboss and identified only capoprovincia, rappresentante, consigliere, capodecina, and soldato as positions in the Sicilian mafia. He said the consigliere served as "sostituto" for the rappresentante. I'd be curious when the earliest references to sottocapo/underboss show up.
allegra was made a member in 1916, the sangiorgi reports was written in 1898 but it dind't mention the rank of capodecina, anyway it was present among the agrigento group (fratellanza di favara) that sangiorgi investigated in the 1880s, so probably there is sure something missed
1 That's what I was thinking but I'm not sure... I have Sangiorgi in front of me and... sostituto. Even in the first "entry" where he lists the groups and leaders in Palermo he goes through each one listing Caporione and Sostituto. I'm not seeing sotto-capo used.

2 I used to assume that he overlooked capodecina but he had the former provincial boss equivalent in Siina providing him information. I'm not sure if he overlooked it or maybe they didn't have them in Palermo by that time. I've seen noting earlier in Palermo to confirm or deny a structure.

3 Capodecina or the equivilant was documented with the Fratellanza?
in the entry he says the 'sottocapo' replaced the 'caporione' when imprisoned, after that he use the word 'sostituito' that in italian it means somebody who replace another in his absence, so it could be a word used by sangiorgi in a generic sense but not the name of the rank who was probably 'sottocapo'... yes the fratellanza di favara had 'capodecinas' documented among its ranks like allegra confirmed in the 1930s (but he was made in 1916), so i think that rank was present also among palermo groups at the time of sangiorgi report, but in sicily that rank is not used in all the families but the largest only, several families are small over there so they don't have 'decinas'
Do you speak Italian? I do and even I ran into issues with this document because the words are dated. Even a word like "Fondo" which played a heavy role in Sangiorgi has a very different meaning today. I actually went and made use of an old Italian dictionary for assistance.

I want to believe Palermo already had decine as well. Seems like they would. But if we're being technical, Sangiorgi never identified them.

Have you read Relazione Mafiose? It's almost a sequel to the Sangiorgi in that it provides lists of members by affiliation. Many of whom have similar surnames and I believe a few are on both the 1898-9 Sangiorgi and the RM.
yes i speak italian but i have some difficult to understand enterely the sangiorgi report because i'ts written in archaic italian
Ran into the same issue.

Found it, first page, sotto capo. Thank you. It's really the only time he goes into it. When he listed off the Palermo leadership he named the bosses followed by "sostituito da ____" for each which is informal. So I was mistaken, there's no passage in there of anyone being named to the position of "sostituto" so scratch what I said earlier.

For clarity, Sangiorgi listed as ranks:

Capo supremo
capo rione
sotto capo (not sostituto)
affiliati

This was a misunderstanding on my end.

Also, if you haven't already, I'd check this out since you can read Ital. https://www.amazon.com/Relazioni-mafios ... 8860830400

Re: The Caps

by scagghiuni » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:22 pm

Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:41 am
Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:32 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:10 am
B. wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 am If I remember right, Dr. Allegra completely overlooked the position of underboss and identified only capoprovincia, rappresentante, consigliere, capodecina, and soldato as positions in the Sicilian mafia. He said the consigliere served as "sostituto" for the rappresentante. I'd be curious when the earliest references to sottocapo/underboss show up.
allegra was made a member in 1916, the sangiorgi reports was written in 1898 but it dind't mention the rank of capodecina, anyway it was present among the agrigento group (fratellanza di favara) that sangiorgi investigated in the 1880s, so probably there is sure something missed
1 That's what I was thinking but I'm not sure... I have Sangiorgi in front of me and... sostituto. Even in the first "entry" where he lists the groups and leaders in Palermo he goes through each one listing Caporione and Sostituto. I'm not seeing sotto-capo used.

2 I used to assume that he overlooked capodecina but he had the former provincial boss equivalent in Siina providing him information. I'm not sure if he overlooked it or maybe they didn't have them in Palermo by that time. I've seen noting earlier in Palermo to confirm or deny a structure.

3 Capodecina or the equivilant was documented with the Fratellanza?
in the entry he says the 'sottocapo' replaced the 'caporione' when imprisoned, after that he use the word 'sostituito' that in italian it means somebody who replace another in his absence, so it could be a word used by sangiorgi in a generic sense but not the name of the rank who was probably 'sottocapo'... yes the fratellanza di favara had 'capodecinas' documented among its ranks like allegra confirmed in the 1930s (but he was made in 1916), so i think that rank was present also among palermo groups at the time of sangiorgi report, but in sicily that rank is not used in all the families but the largest only, several families are small over there so they don't have 'decinas'
Do you speak Italian? I do and even I ran into issues with this document because the words are dated. Even a word like "Fondo" which played a heavy role in Sangiorgi has a very different meaning today. I actually went and made use of an old Italian dictionary for assistance.

I want to believe Palermo already had decine as well. Seems like they would. But if we're being technical, Sangiorgi never identified them.

Have you read Relazione Mafiose? It's almost a sequel to the Sangiorgi in that it provides lists of members by affiliation. Many of whom have similar surnames and I believe a few are on both the 1898-9 Sangiorgi and the RM.
yes i speak italian but i have some difficult to understand enterely the sangiorgi report because i'ts written in archaic italian

Re: The Caps

by B. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:33 pm

Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:52 am
While I can't connect him personally to Carini aside from his closest associates being from there, the Carinesi appear to have been the most influential groups of compaesani in the Profaci family aside from the Villabatesi, producing multiple captains and consiglieri. While limited, there is reason to speculate that this group had its roots under Peraino. Peraino's ties to Palermo Centro could lend itself to a Mineo connection, too.
I found some earlier Carinesi in Brooklyn on the same street/area Mineo was on, I think I shared it with you, they in 1910 were connected with Palermitan in the same area, I believe some Carinesi even had relatives in Palermo as its very close.
I haven't ruled out that the Perainos themselves might have originally come from Carini, or have some direct connection there. I know a sister or sister-in-law of Peraino was living in Palermo Centro when he visited Sicily, but I haven't seen conclusive enough records to trace his family's background. His sons and his early associate Nicolo Failla (from Carini) would become Profaci members, and another close Carinese associate of his was Giuseppe Mannino, who was murdered around the same period as Peraino. The Manninos of Carini were part of the Buffa-Badalamenti-D'Alessandro clan who would be the powerful Carinesi faction of the Profaci family.
Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:52 am
Joe Bonanno talked about how Commission meetings would be attended by an aide in addition to the boss, and I'd have to check, but I thought he said the boss could consult this aide. There is precedent with Traina and Mangano attending the 1928 meeting together, when Traina probably outranked Mangano. Based on the 1940 Treasury report, it appears that after the war Mangano and Traina continued this relationship where Traina was invited to participate in high-level matters as an "aide" (maybe more like senior counsel).
Almost makes me want to break down these meetings and look at who attended more. I never looked into the 1928 meeting.
You can def see some leader+aide relationships at the Cleveland 1928 assembly. Profaci/Magliocco, Lolordo/Bacino, S.Lombardino/A.Lombardino, SanFilippo/Mirabile, etc. Some of them are harder to determine but it's clear (to me at least) that some of the attendees at that meeting were aides to senior figures and I believe Mangano probably attended as Traina's aide. It's interesting too because it shows that while Profaci was not yet a boss, he was an important figure presumably of the Mineo group.
What do you make of these claims? I took it as Valachi being confused or incorrect.
It would depend on the claim. I tend to see some of Valachi's more confusing statements as "Where there's smoke, there's fire," i.e. there is some truth to it somewhere, but he may have gotten it slightly (or very) wrong, though I don't discount it entirely. He isn't the best source on what went on at the highest levels and he was politically clueless but I think he was smarter than he's given credit for. I don't have reason to question him on some of these claims, though. It's possible the consiglieri of different families did have some kind of "commission", but a consigliere was not an official member of the big national Commissione -- it's probable, though, they attended as a boss's aide.
It's possible Agrigentesi were in NO that early on, but they were never larger or greater or more influential than the Palermitans. Unless a group of Maggiore-Amari-Caternicchios arrived in 1840 to St Phillips and Decatur it's hard to place them anywhere close to being founders. And problem with imm. that early on is we'll be lucky if we get "Sicily" on the manifest.
It's something I need to look into more before I would seriously entertain it and like you said, I might not even get anywhere based on how limited those early records are. I know the Marcellos and Gaglianos were from Agrigento (the Marcellos via Tunis) and there were other Agrigentesi in the family during that era, but I would have no idea if those guys have relatives or paesani with deeper roots in the area. It's possible NO was more like a staging area for an early Agrigentesi element that moved elsewhere.

Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by thekiduknow » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:30 pm

Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:20 am
Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:04 am
thekiduknow wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:21 pm Interesting that he's described as the "Boss" of Williamsburg in the 20s, I assumed that Vito Bonventre was the capo/boss of the area. It makes me wonder where Bonventre was within the family. Bonanno describes him as the "second richest man in the family", but I'm not sure how that relates to rank, did he mean the second overall in the family, or just financially wise.

Bonanno names him as a "Group Leader" (Caporegime) at the time he was killed.


Pogo
Which brings me to the issues of panels/committees in regards to the Bonannos. You guys can likely fill in more examples but I've clocked panels in 2004, 1990ish, 1979, 1964 etc. We see it pop up in alot of their history even during times of stability. Coincidently or maybe not, when a member was suspected of being an informant in 1911, Sebastiano Di Gaetano, as interim CDC, assigned Clemente onto a "Committee of one" to investigate. We know Schiro was well traveled and away alot of the time while presiding over a family that pumped out bosses into SF, DT, BL, NE etc. Not that it was a conspiracy but it seems to demonstrate that family allowed room for people to grow. (Maybe even Masseria's first affiliation was with them.)

Makes me think, Schiro either had a strong Under or panels/committees are something that they've utilized from an early period.
So Gallo was on a ruling panel? Was this around when he died? Again it makes me wonder if Vito Bonventre was part of the admin/panel, as he was also described as a “group leader” by Bonanno, but was important enough to be killed early on by Masseria.

Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by Angelo Santino » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:20 am

Pogo The Clown wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:04 am
thekiduknow wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:21 pm Interesting that he's described as the "Boss" of Williamsburg in the 20s, I assumed that Vito Bonventre was the capo/boss of the area. It makes me wonder where Bonventre was within the family. Bonanno describes him as the "second richest man in the family", but I'm not sure how that relates to rank, did he mean the second overall in the family, or just financially wise.

Bonanno names him as a "Group Leader" (Caporegime) at the time he was killed.


Pogo
Which brings me to the issues of panels/committees in regards to the Bonannos. You guys can likely fill in more examples but I've clocked panels in 2004, 1990ish, 1979, 1964 etc. We see it pop up in alot of their history even during times of stability. Coincidently or maybe not, when a member was suspected of being an informant in 1911, Sebastiano Di Gaetano, as interim CDC, assigned Clemente onto a "Committee of one" to investigate. We know Schiro was well traveled and away alot of the time while presiding over a family that pumped out bosses into SF, DT, BL, NE etc. Not that it was a conspiracy but it seems to demonstrate that family allowed room for people to grow. (Maybe even Masseria's first affiliation was with them.)

Makes me think, Schiro either had a strong Under or panels/committees are something that they've utilized from an early period.

Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by Pogo The Clown » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:04 am

thekiduknow wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:21 pm Interesting that he's described as the "Boss" of Williamsburg in the 20s, I assumed that Vito Bonventre was the capo/boss of the area. It makes me wonder where Bonventre was within the family. Bonanno describes him as the "second richest man in the family", but I'm not sure how that relates to rank, did he mean the second overall in the family, or just financially wise.

Bonanno names him as a "Group Leader" (Caporegime) at the time he was killed.


Pogo

Re: The Caps

by Angelo Santino » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 am

scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:41 am
Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:32 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:10 am
B. wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 am If I remember right, Dr. Allegra completely overlooked the position of underboss and identified only capoprovincia, rappresentante, consigliere, capodecina, and soldato as positions in the Sicilian mafia. He said the consigliere served as "sostituto" for the rappresentante. I'd be curious when the earliest references to sottocapo/underboss show up.
allegra was made a member in 1916, the sangiorgi reports was written in 1898 but it dind't mention the rank of capodecina, anyway it was present among the agrigento group (fratellanza di favara) that sangiorgi investigated in the 1880s, so probably there is sure something missed
1 That's what I was thinking but I'm not sure... I have Sangiorgi in front of me and... sostituto. Even in the first "entry" where he lists the groups and leaders in Palermo he goes through each one listing Caporione and Sostituto. I'm not seeing sotto-capo used.

2 I used to assume that he overlooked capodecina but he had the former provincial boss equivalent in Siina providing him information. I'm not sure if he overlooked it or maybe they didn't have them in Palermo by that time. I've seen noting earlier in Palermo to confirm or deny a structure.

3 Capodecina or the equivilant was documented with the Fratellanza?
in the entry he says the 'sottocapo' replaced the 'caporione' when imprisoned, after that he use the word 'sostituito' that in italian it means somebody who replace another in his absence, so it could be a word used by sangiorgi in a generic sense but not the name of the rank who was probably 'sottocapo'... yes the fratellanza di favara had 'capodecinas' documented among its ranks like allegra confirmed in the 1930s (but he was made in 1916), so i think that rank was present also among palermo groups at the time of sangiorgi report, but in sicily that rank is not used in all the families but the largest only, several families are small over there so they don't have 'decinas'
Do you speak Italian? I do and even I ran into issues with this document because the words are dated. Even a word like "Fondo" which played a heavy role in Sangiorgi has a very different meaning today. I actually went and made use of an old Italian dictionary for assistance.

I want to believe Palermo already had decine as well. Seems like they would. But if we're being technical, Sangiorgi never identified them.

Have you read Relazione Mafiose? It's almost a sequel to the Sangiorgi in that it provides lists of members by affiliation. Many of whom have similar surnames and I believe a few are on both the 1898-9 Sangiorgi and the RM.

Re: The Caps

by scagghiuni » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:41 am

Chris Christie wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:32 am
scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:10 am
B. wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 am If I remember right, Dr. Allegra completely overlooked the position of underboss and identified only capoprovincia, rappresentante, consigliere, capodecina, and soldato as positions in the Sicilian mafia. He said the consigliere served as "sostituto" for the rappresentante. I'd be curious when the earliest references to sottocapo/underboss show up.
allegra was made a member in 1916, the sangiorgi reports was written in 1898 but it dind't mention the rank of capodecina, anyway it was present among the agrigento group (fratellanza di favara) that sangiorgi investigated in the 1880s, so probably there is sure something missed
1 That's what I was thinking but I'm not sure... I have Sangiorgi in front of me and... sostituto. Even in the first "entry" where he lists the groups and leaders in Palermo he goes through each one listing Caporione and Sostituto. I'm not seeing sotto-capo used.

2 I used to assume that he overlooked capodecina but he had the former provincial boss equivalent in Siina providing him information. I'm not sure if he overlooked it or maybe they didn't have them in Palermo by that time. I've seen noting earlier in Palermo to confirm or deny a structure.

3 Capodecina or the equivilant was documented with the Fratellanza?
in the entry he says the 'sottocapo' replaced the 'caporione' when imprisoned, after that he use the word 'sostituito' that in italian it means somebody who replace another in his absence, so it could be a word used by sangiorgi in a generic sense but not the name of the rank who was probably 'sottocapo'... yes the fratellanza di favara had 'capodecinas' documented among its ranks like allegra confirmed in the 1930s (but he was made in 1916), so i think that rank was present also among palermo groups at the time of sangiorgi report, but in sicily that rank is not used in all the families but the largest only, several families are small over there so they don't have 'decinas'

Re: The Caps

by Angelo Santino » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:52 am

Ferrigno was living in the Bronx, but like Lupo, D'Aquila, and Carlo Gambino, he had ties to both the Bronx and Brooklyn. That lends itself to the idea that he was part of the future Gambino family, as the Mineo-Profaci side of things was focused in Brooklyn and there was little to no presence in the Bronx. But then his brother ends up in the Profaci family, so who knows for sure which way things flowed then.
That's a good point. But perhaps its possible he was "transferred" over, seems like Masseria had no issue with 'installing' bosses.
Another name to throw in there is the Palermitano Giuseppe Peraino. His role gets muddied up because he worked with Frankie Yale and anyone who ever looked Yale in the eyes got labeled in contemporary LE and media reports as a Yale subordinate without much substance to it. Peraino's sons would end up in the Profaci family, but beyond that, Peraino's closest associates were from Carini and fairly recently I found some threads that indicate his Carinesi associates were connected or even related to the influential Carini faction of the Profaci family. Peraino traveled to Sicily in the late 1920s, too, along with his wife and younger children, visiting a relative in Palermo Centro.
Yale worked with everybody, oddly he was called Lupo's lieutenant by Agent Palma before Lupo was released from prison where he'd been for 10 years.
At the time of his death, Peraino is described by all sources as a leader of some kind and available info points toward him being with the Mineo-DiBella-Profaci family. Following Peraino's murder, his adult son and brother-in-law were also murdered. This all transpires toward the end of the confusing period in question, after Mineo jumps to the D'Aquila family, DiBella becomes boss, and Profaci attends the 1928 Cleveland assembly possibly as a ranking representative of that group. It's not unheard of for people to hold high-ranking positions briefly, especially during periods of conflict (think of Scalise being boss only briefly before Mangano), so I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Peraino had a high-ranking position in that family before his death.
It's confusing and interesting at the same time.
While I can't connect him personally to Carini aside from his closest associates being from there, the Carinesi appear to have been the most influential groups of compaesani in the Profaci family aside from the Villabatesi, producing multiple captains and consiglieri. While limited, there is reason to speculate that this group had its roots under Peraino. Peraino's ties to Palermo Centro could lend itself to a Mineo connection, too.
I found some earlier Carinesi in Brooklyn on the same street/area Mineo was on, I think I shared it with you, they in 1910 were connected with Palermitan in the same area, I believe some Carinesi even had relatives in Palermo as its very close.
The question is, why was Peraino killed? His murder doesn't get linked to the Castellammarese War or related conflicts and most contemporary reports don't seem reliable. The subsequent murder of his son and brother-in-law are another significant piece of the puzzle.
That's a good question. I don't know hardly anything about Peraino. I learned more just now from what you wrote about him. Thank you.
We do have a murky idea at least of where Mangano fit in with the Masseria-Mineo faction during the war, making it pretty clear he was one of the top loyalists to Mineo at the time. Whether that was just circumstantial and out of self-interest rather than a sign that he was personally close to Mineo is hard to say (as it often is in the mafia), but Maranzano continued to see Mangano as a major threat even after the war and had him at the top of his alleged hitlist along with the new leaders of Masseria's family. We know that Frank Scalise and Giuseppe Traina were not-so-secretly sympathetic to the Maranzano-Gagliano faction and in Scalise's case he was a full-blown spy for them, while Mangano is described as an unwavering loyalist on the Masseria-Mineo side.
Interesting.
Traina on the other hand appears to have kept a neutral stance on the surface, whatever position he continued to hold officially. The fact that he was not only selected by the assembly to form a "peace" commission in 1930 but also allowed to hand-pick all of the other commission members (who were mostly bosses) speaks volumes to me. Even though Traina was a D'Aquila man who seems to have been opposed to the Masseria-Mineo faction that killed his compare D'Aquila, he appears to have been seen as a trustworthy party to both sides of the war and long afterward.
That it does. I mean usually before a boss is killed it's the people around him who get hit first and Traina didn't.

Joe Bonanno talked about how Commission meetings would be attended by an aide in addition to the boss, and I'd have to check, but I thought he said the boss could consult this aide. There is precedent with Traina and Mangano attending the 1928 meeting together, when Traina probably outranked Mangano. Based on the 1940 Treasury report, it appears that after the war Mangano and Traina continued this relationship where Traina was invited to participate in high-level matters as an "aide" (maybe more like senior counsel).
Almost makes me want to break down these meetings and look at who attended more. I never looked into the 1928 meeting.
What's interesting is that there is evidence Traina was the national representative for the Philadelphia family under D'Aquila, Mangano, and Carlo Gambino, so beyond being a possible "aide" to Mangano on the Commission, he had a specific duty when it came to Philadelphia's affairs that did not change for at least 50 years (the first example is his involvement in Sabella's 1919 election, the last known example being the 1969 Philly induction that Traina approved). After Traina's death, we see John Gambino filling a similar role in the mid-late 1980s where he suggests Reds Pontani as Philly acting boss and might be responsible for pushing Stanfa as boss in 1990, too, then in 2010 he presides over the meeting with the Philly leadership.
Interesting. Sorry I don't really have anything to add, in fact I'm learning.
In Valachi's FBI interviews, when they asked him about the consigliere position he said that sometimes the consiglieri are members of the Commission. This is sort of backed up by the Commission case of the 1980s, where it's clear that non-bosses not only participated in the Commission but even took an active role. Tony Salerno was not the official boss yet handled the Genovese family's Commission activities and we know underbosses Neil Dellacroce and Tom Santoro participated in the Commission alongside their bosses. In the 1960s, there are multiple reports that describe how Bonanno's acting boss John Morale had attended Commission meetings on his behalf. So Valachi is right that non-bosses could actively participate in the Commission.

Valachi also said that in 1931 the NYC families formed a separate "commission" consisting only of the consiglieri of the five families for handling disputes. I'd be curious if anyone else has ever mentioned this "commission of consiglieri". As Antiliar has shared, there was also apparently a "numbers commission" where each family had a representative to administer the then-thriving numbers operations in NYC. We know from Gentile's info that even during the days of the "boss of bosses", national assemblies would form commissions for specific purposes (which show that the boss of bosses wasn't just a micromanaging despot), so the idea of a "consiglieri commission" and "numbers commission" aren't that crazy and could be examples of an ongoing trend in the mafia to use specific commissions, pre-1931 and post-1931. With that in mind, the idea of the national Commission formed in 1931 isn't that revolutionary and we know they tried to put in place the first time before Maranzano even became boss of bosses.
What do you make of these claims? I took it as Valachi being confused or incorrect.
In Valachi's initial FBI interviews he used the word "sottocapo" to describe underboss. In my thread about that, I asked the same thing -- at what point did members themselves start using the term "underboss"? In the same way that the mafia has evolved to include "street bosses" and "ruling panels" (even when the official boss is on the street), I suspect that the sottocapo may have developed later than some of the other positions.

As the mafia became more well-known and bosses had to become more conscious of their activities and relationships, it's possible the sottocapo was created. Of course we're still talking over 100 years ago and this is just speculation, but it might explain why some early sources either gloss over the position or don't include it at all. Could be wrong and maybe they've always had it in some capacity but there is no doubt bosses used to be more hands on, including a boss of bosses like Morello, and the function of a true "sottocapo" is no different than a so-called street boss.

I agree "sosituto" makes the most sense as a form of "acting boss". It is a substitute when the official leader is unavailable. We tend to think of "acting boss" or "acting captain" as positions that only exist when a leader is semi-retired, in prison, or otherwise has some issue preventing him from running things. However, there are reported instances where an acting captain is appointed simply when the official captain is on a short vacation or just can't attend a meeting. It sounds like a "sostituto" was used the same way.

In the modern Sicilian mafia, we have seen the term "regente" used for the acting boss when a boss if imprisoned, so "regente" may be the modern version of "sostituto". Not sure if "regente" is only used for capomandamento or capoprovincia, but I believe it is used for any acting boss. Whether it's the term Italian LE has used or an actual term used by the mafia, maybe someone else can tell us, but it seems to be more or less synonymous with "sosituto".
It's possible.
I wouldn't necessarily say that D'Arco claimed it was the DeCavalcantes -- he only said NJ and it would make more sense if he referred to the Newark family given he said the Lucchese family was at some point affiliated with the NJ group (though we don't truly know if the DeCavalcantes were separate from Newark then). Corleonese Newark boss Stefano Badami came to the US with Tom Gagliano's brother-in-law Salvatore Pennino, himself a Corleonese mafioso whose sons would join the mafia in Corleone, and Badami told immigration authorities his arrival contact was Tom Gagliano, who is believed to have been the Reina underboss at the time. Whatever D'Arco got confused, we can see that the Newark boss Badami was closely tied to the Reina-Gagliano leadership when he arrived. More on that here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4545
I never read the D'Arco book, so point take on NJ
I don't recall Gentile's exact words, but he implied he was assigned to be a mediator or authority over multiple Agrigentesi decine but didn't hold an official rank, not even capodecina. The question is, why would this particular group of paesani need to have their own defacto authority figure over the Sciacchitani/Agrigentesi crews? Along the lines of the claim that the US mafia had its roots in Agrigento, it makes me think of how the New Orleans family didn't have to answer to the Commission out of respect for being the first family, which shows that the US mafia did afford respect to certain groups for their historical significance. This is blind speculation, but maybe the Agrigentesi were more or less allowed to administer their own affairs in the Gambino family because of some similar historical significance? Maybe this is why the DeCavalcantes were also allowed to exist as a small, relatively independent group on the fringes of NYC?
Yeah, possible.
I wouldn't rule out the possibilty that the Agrigentesi had a larger role in early New Orleans either, and that could reconcile the ideas that both Agrigento and New Orleans played a role in the birth of the US mafia. I have seen that many early Agrigentesi mafia figures arrived to the US via New Orleans, but I don't know if they stayed or what's known as far as Agrigento-born members in New Orleans. Salvatore Falcone of Utica was from Sciacca and married a Provenzano from New Orleans, the Provenzanos being an early NO mafia name. What we do know is Agrigento played a significant role in other early southern mafia families, including Birmingham, Tampa, and while not southern (but close enough), St. Louis. That suggests to me there was a foundation of Agrigentesi in NO that fanned out to those other southern-ish cities.

Something similar sort of plays out in Sicily when it comes to Agrigento province. A Sicilian mafia expert could correct me, but from what I've seen Agrigento was not immune the larger political conflicts of the island, but they come across much more insular and consumed with their own affairs than some of the other provinces.
It's possible Agrigentesi were in NO that early on, but they were never larger or greater or more influential than the Palermitans. Unless a group of Maggiore-Amari-Caternicchios arrived in 1840 to St Phillips and Decatur it's hard to place them anywhere close to being founders. And problem with imm. that early on is we'll be lucky if we get "Sicily" on the manifest.

Re: The Caps

by Angelo Santino » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:32 am

scagghiuni wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:10 am
B. wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 am If I remember right, Dr. Allegra completely overlooked the position of underboss and identified only capoprovincia, rappresentante, consigliere, capodecina, and soldato as positions in the Sicilian mafia. He said the consigliere served as "sostituto" for the rappresentante. I'd be curious when the earliest references to sottocapo/underboss show up.
allegra was made a member in 1916, the sangiorgi reports was written in 1898 but it dind't mention the rank of capodecina, anyway it was present among the agrigento group (fratellanza di favara) that sangiorgi investigated in the 1880s, so probably there is sure something missed
1 That's what I was thinking but I'm not sure... I have Sangiorgi in front of me and... sostituto. Even in the first "entry" where he lists the groups and leaders in Palermo he goes through each one listing Caporione and Sostituto. I'm not seeing sotto-capo used.

2 I used to assume that he overlooked capodecina but he had the former provincial boss equivalent in Siina providing him information. I'm not sure if he overlooked it or maybe they didn't have them in Palermo by that time. I've seen noting earlier in Palermo to confirm or deny a structure.

3 Capodecina or the equivilant was documented with the Fratellanza?

Re: Early Mafia History Discussion

by B. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:50 am

Chris Christie wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:13 pm I'll get back to everyone tomorrow but short version
1) Sangiorgi, 99% of time it uses sostituto to describe the individual under caporione. I believe you that it's in there though.
2) Gallo, not much is known beyond that. One informant in the early 20's described him as the boss of the Williamsburgh Mob, he also owned a business in Little Italy, NYC with.... Antonino Cecala (who had gotten out of prison from the '10 trial.) Underboss, acting boss, on a panel? We don't know.
3) B., I'm running on 19 hours I'll respond later when my brain is working. There's some parts you're venturing into that I admitably am ignorant on.
No worries at all, brother... that post was something like 3 huge cups of coffee while fasting through breakfast, so it might be a monster to tackle, haha.

Re: The Caps

by scagghiuni » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:10 am

B. wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 am If I remember right, Dr. Allegra completely overlooked the position of underboss and identified only capoprovincia, rappresentante, consigliere, capodecina, and soldato as positions in the Sicilian mafia. He said the consigliere served as "sostituto" for the rappresentante. I'd be curious when the earliest references to sottocapo/underboss show up.
allegra was made a member in 1916, the sangiorgi reports was written in 1898 but it dind't mention the rank of capodecina, anyway it was present among the agrigento group (fratellanza di favara) that sangiorgi investigated in the 1880s, so probably there is sure something missed

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