THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:22 pm In the overall sense, the tradition (and all that encompasses) in the very reason the Mafia has lasted while so many other criminal groups have come and gone.

Strongly agree. 150 years+

In the overall sense, the tradition (and all that encompasses) in the very reason the Mafia has lasted while so many other criminal groups have come and gone.

This is a repost I’d done many months ago addressing the issue of “formality and tradition” in relation to the “Rat” problem of today and breakdown in the fabric of “The Life” in general........
-
I think it speaks to the question you posed for this thread.
———————————————————————————

This post is of the various informants that have been documented by law enforcement over the years for the period of the 1950's through 2018. All known reputed "members", as well as, many of the better known "associates" are listed (associates are so numerous that its an almost impossible task to document them all).
Gambino: (14)
Alfredo (Freddy the Sidge) Santantonio
Alfonso Attardi
Nicolo Gentile - served in several regions, but intially very close to Salvatore D'Aquilla
Salvatore (Sammy the Bull) Gravano
Nicholas (Nicky Skins) Stefanelli
Primo Cassarino
Joseph (Little Joe) D'Angelo
Robert Mormando
Carmine (The Doctor) Lombardozzi - dry snitch for years according to fbi 302's released
Craig DePalma
Michael (Mikey Scars) DiLeonardo
Dominick (Fat Dom) Borghese
Frank (Frankie Fap)Fappiano
Anthony (Big Tony) Moscatiello
___
Bonanno: (18)
Joseph (Big Joey) Massino
Salvatore (Handsome Sal) Vitale
James (Big Lou) Tartaglione
Salvatore (Bill) Bonanno - dry snitch
Generoso (Jimmy the General) Barbieri
Pietro (Petey Rose) Rosa
Paul Cantarella
Richard (Shellack Head) Cantarella
Joseph (Joe Mook) D'Amico
Dominick (Donnie) Cicale
Frank Coppa
Frank (Curly) Lino
William (Willy the Tile Setter) Dara - dry snitch
Joseph (Jersey Joe) Bonanno
Michael (Sonny) Maggio
Peter (Petey Bullshit) Lovaglio
Nicholas (PJ) Pisciotta
Vincenzo (Enzo) Morena

___
Lucchese: (17) ?
Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso
Joseph (Joe D) Defede
Alphonse (Little Al) D'Arco
Peter (Fat Pete) Chiodo
Anthony (Tumac) Accetturo Sr
Anthony Accetturo Jr
Thomas Ricciardi
Frank Lagano - dry snitch
Frank (Goo Goo) Suppa
Joseph D'Arco
Frank Gioia Sr
Frank Gioia Jr
Vincent (Baldy) Salanardi
Eugenio (Gene) Giannini
Dominick (The Gap) Petrilli
Steven LaPella
Rosario (Sal) Rinaldi
Joseph (Pip the Blind) Gagliano - ? suspected but never proven that he had given info to fbn

____
Colombo: (21)
Carmine Sessa
Salvatore (Big Sal) Miciotta
Rocco Cagno
Dino (Big Dino) Calabro
Sebastiano (Sebby) Saracino
John Pate
Paul (Paulie Guns) Bevacqua
Ralph (Whitey) Tropiano
James (Jimmy Ran)Randazzo
Michael Franzese
Dennis Guzzardo
Joseph (Joe Campy) Campanella
Alan (Allie) Quattrache
Joseph (Joe Caves) Competiello
Reynold (Ren) Maragni
Anthony (Big Anthony) Russo
Gregory Scarpa Sr
Gregory Scarpa Jr
MIchael (Mickey) Souza
Christoforo Robino - alleged dry snitch
Lawrence (Larry) Gallo - dry snitch as per fbi 302's

____
Genovese: (8)
Joseph (Joe Cago) Valachi
John (Johnny Futto) Biello
George Barone
Vincent (Fish) Cafaro
Louis Moscatiello
Anthony (Bingy) Arillotta
Felix Tranghese
Renaldi (Ray) Ruggiero

____
DeCavalcante: (3)
Vincent (Vinny Ocean) Palermo
Anthony Rotondo
Anthony Capo
____
Associates: various associates from all the different areas. This is just a very short list. I recognize that there are so many many more out there. Please feel free to add names as you see fit.
Joseph Cantalupo
Salvatore (Sonny Black) Montella
Joseph (Joey Brains) Ambrosino
Lawrence (Larry) Mazza
Salvatore (Crazy Sal) Polisi
Matthew Traynor
Chris Paciello
Joseph (Joe Pesh) Luparelli
Harry Bonfiglio
Michael Maffetore
Frank (Frankie Blue Eyes) Sparaco
Nicholas Botta
Jimmy Calandra
Christopher Liberatore
Anthony Liberatore
Joseph Calco
MIchael (Cookie) D'Urso
James Cardinali
Anthony Ruggiano Jr
Burton (Burt) Kaplan
Anthony (Tony Limo) Saravoli
Peter (The Greek) Diapoulos
Ernest (Ernie the Hawk) Rupolo
Thomas Mattio
Angelo (Fat Angelo) Garofalo
Vincent Garofalo
Gaetano (Guy) Fatato
John Franzese Jr
Dominick Lofaro
Lawrence Iorizzo
Ralph Wagner
Henry Hill

____
In addition to the NY/NJ lists above, when you consider the additional 100-150 + federally documented reputed "members" plus the virtually limitless
number of "associates" throughout the entire country, its clear to see that "the life" is in sad shape to say the least. Even decades ago there were always rats, stool pidgeons, informants, however you want to refer to them. But never ever near the numbers there are today. They were far and few between proportionately speaking. Why? What happened? ......In my humble opinion there are several reasons. First and foremost, the draconian laws on the books today (Rico, etc.) make for unprecedented sentences. A gambling pinch that years ago would have resulted in a small fine or tops 30 days to 1 year max bit, today calls for 5 years or worse. A usury pinch which years ago was a misdemeanor, today is a big pinch. Even a narcotics arrest, say heroin, which would have brought a typical 6 month - tops 5 year term brings (unless you were a serious repeat offender), 10 years to 50 years like blinking your eye. Next, the entire culture and mentality has changed. Years ago, guys were raised with much more respect for family, authority, tradition, and an overall feeling of "honor", which was the backbone of this thing. Also, growing up in the old traditional neighborhood strongholds, which gave rise and reinforced a strong sense of "togetherness", loyalty, and cohesiveness because everyone knew each others dads, moms, grandparents, siblings, cousins, etc., for generations, gave a sense of responsibility if you will, to "honor" each other. They were one step closer to the "old" traditions of Sicily/Italy and learned at the feet of the originals. Very few would ever consider "ratting" out. To do so, would bring such dishonor to themselves, their family name, their family members and even their associates that it was almost a faith worse than death. (of course they're were exceptions, the Santantonio's, Attardi's, etc), but it was rare. Next, in large part, NO respect for each other. Today, many guys in the big seat know they're time at the boss helm is limited because of getting pinched, or shuffling around. So they rob as much as they can, often from other good guys, which breeds disharmony, thereby weakening the overall structure and loyalty of things. Next, today many if not most of the guys who go into this are there solely for money. And when the "shoelaces" get tightened, and things don't look so rosy anymore they jump ship to team America. Years ago, of course guys looked to score, but it was more of a complete lifestyle that they lived, day in, day out. Again many, if not most, sought out that life because of the what the life represented to them, the great "honor" of it, not just the money per se. Makes a big difference when your in it for the long haul (cause this is who you are), as opposed to the money train.

Don't get me wrong, they're are still many very good guys in this life. But they are very typically many of the guys you'll never read about. Low key guys, who command much respect for having survived for so long. Some very wealthy, some maybe not so much, but who do their thing and go about their business without fanfare and notoriety. Maybe they have been pinched in the past, but they don't flash, they stay the course, and only associate with like minded individuals. Old friends if you will. They typically have no use for the younger guys, cause they don't know them, their pedigree, and don't care to.

Anyway, this post became way longer than originally intended. Lol......just my humble opinion on things. I welcome any additions or thoughts on what I have posted.

Very good point for now a days. Was Chicago lax in that department? I really know nothing about them.

There are people out there though. That don't need that fear to be loyal. Have to find them, just don't take someone because you are lazy. Also bad leadership can turn some also. I didn't even think of that at first either.

JIGGS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:36 am HELLO!

I'm reading the article Roemer’s men in the Outfit: 'Sporting Goods' and 'Romano' By Edmond Valin. (Copied from: http://mafiahistory.us/rattrap/roemersmen.html) and a couple a thoughts came to mind. The article says that in all likelyhood the Ralph pierce and butch blasi was "Sporting Goods" amd "Romano." One guy wasnt italian or made. Another guy was but according to the fed bill reomer blasi didnt go through a "traditional" initiation ceremony.

Reading the commentary on this forum by guys educated on capone gang it seem like their ship has sunk.

Do you think if the chicago had not worked with guys who were'nt italian and if the big bosses had been strict about the gun, knife, blood ceremony when a guy got straightened out would it have made any difference in the present day? Would there have been less snitches? More guys joining or recruitment? Because with "tradition" it makes it like almost a religious approach? (Some stone cold mafiosi would probably cring at being told to whack out or rape a nun. Not coz they got a problem with whacking or raping anybody. But because its a nun. Know what I'm saying?) And maybe it would a made more guys less willing to inform to the police?

Do the families that stick to "tradition" have more longevity? Or is it just more bullshit?

JIGGS

That "Ceremony" thing doesn't guarantee anything as proven by all the informants who have gone through the Ceremony. The most important thing in keeping any criminal group together is the "Fear Factor". Once the "Fear Factor" of reprisal is gone in someone's mind, then all bets are off. The reason why there are many more informants now is because they don't fear reprisal. That's the bottom line IMO.

My answer has nothing to do with the characters you are taking about or the specific group of people.
I hope you don't mind. I just want to express my opinion.

My opinion. Just my thoughts. I'm just taking and definitely not preaching.

There has always been and still are some the most loyal people on earth. Some call them members or just hanger ons whatever you want to call someone.

What I'm trying to say. There are trustworthy people and there aren't. I don't care what their blood is or who their parents are. If I'm with someone and we are doing something that can't get out or that needs to be kept private.... you need to have total trust.
Does that make any sense?

Tradition I think is very important to maintain stability.

Meaning ... Maybe the ideals shared with like minded people about tradition. Not their skin or parents. Etc.
I believe this is true for crime. Business. Friendship. Police. Anything.

Bosses should also be held more accountable in all areas of life and jobs, especially the hiring process, you would have less bad employees (or let's say rats)
I think there used to be better HR people in crime. They used to actually know the person before hiring them.
Guys get alittle juice today in any line of work and maybe work less and party more. That's where I agree with Bronx a bit.

In short. I think if Chicago had worked with better better quality people they would have had less of the problems.

Quality people are the key. Whatever you define a quality person. Depends on your job or moral beliefs.

Also remember that if you are shady and have just one partner, your chances of getting caught just doubled. Imagine having many partners. No shot.

it is ...whats good for me...generation

HELLO!

I'm reading the article Roemer’s men in the Outfit: 'Sporting Goods' and 'Romano' By Edmond Valin. (Copied from: http://mafiahistory.us/rattrap/roemersmen.html) and a couple a thoughts came to mind. The article says that in all likelyhood the Ralph pierce and butch blasi was "Sporting Goods" amd "Romano." One guy wasnt italian or made. Another guy was but according to the fed bill reomer blasi didnt go through a "traditional" initiation ceremony.

Reading the commentary on this forum by guys educated on capone gang it seem like their ship has sunk.

Do you think if the chicago had not worked with guys who were'nt italian and if the big bosses had been strict about the gun, knife, blood ceremony when a guy got straightened out would it have made any difference in the present day? Would there have been less snitches? More guys joining or recruitment? Because with "tradition" it makes it like almost a religious approach? (Some stone cold mafiosi would probably cring at being told to whack out or rape a nun. Not coz they got a problem with whacking or raping anybody. But because its a nun. Know what I'm saying?) And maybe it would a made more guys less willing to inform to the police?

Do the families that stick to "tradition" have more longevity? Or is it just more bullshit?

JIGGS