Castellammare del Golfo discussion

[HairyKnuckles]

both valenti and asaro are surnames from castellammare del golfo, these two families have probably been relative to each other for 100 years

Felice, do you know if it has ever been established that the Buccellatos were part of the Castellammare cosca, or did they head a seperate Mafia group?

Another thing that´s interesting is that Vincent Asaro´s great grand father Girolamo was accused of murder but managed to escape to USA before being convicted. One of Asaro´s accomplices in that murder was Martino Buccellato, a member of the Buccellato clan. So it looks like the Asaros were on the Buccellato side in the Magaddino/Bonanno versus Buccellato feud. It would be interesting to know when exactly the feud ended and what the Asaros relationship with Stefano Magaddino (and later Maranzano) and Joe Bonanno was when they were in power. All these three were fighting the Buccellatos back in Sicily.

[felice]

sure, the buccellato family has always been the leading family of the local cosa nostra family. before being gunned down in 1977 nicola buccellato was the the head of the trapani province. his son antonino was killed in 1981

[HairyKnuckles]

Another thing that´s interesting is that Vincent Asaro´s great grand father Girolamo was accused of murder but managed to escape to USA before being convicted. One of Asaro´s accomplices in that murder was Martino Buccellato, a member of the Buccellato clan. So it looks like the Asaros were on the Buccellato side in the Magaddino/Bonanno versus Buccellato feud. It would be interesting to know when exactly the feud ended and what the Asaros relationship with Stefano Magaddino (and later Maranzano) and Joe Bonanno was when they were in power. All these three were fighting the Buccellatos back in Sicily.

Vincenzo Asaro was one of the early backers of the DiGregorio faction. Supposedly he held a grudge against Bonanno after being demoted to Soldier for an unknown reason. Asaro was under John Morale by the 1960s, and it seems like most of the anti-Bonanno faction really hated John Morale and by extension his brother Rosario.

Thanks for the response. So, Frank Italiano may not have been the only one who (although perhaps secretly) opposed Bonanno being named boss in 1931.

[HairyKnuckles]

sure, the buccellato family has always been the leading family of the local cosa nostra family. before being gunned down in 1977 nicola buccellato was the the head of the trapani province. his son antonino was killed in 1981

So the Bonannos/Magaddinos and the Buccellatos were all part of the same cosca in the early 1900? Thanks for the response.

[felice]

felice, gaspare and giuseppe magaddino. gaspare was killed in ny in 1970, his son giuseppe was killed 1998.
gaspare was the family boss for a while in the 60s.

[felice]

except palermo none city was allowed to have more than one cosa nostra family.

[B.]

I recommend messaging JimmyB on here if you want to talk about the factions in Castellammare and some of the historical relationships. He's got a lot of knowledge on that topic and I've learned a lot from him. He also doesn't try to paint an unrealistic picture of the Buccellatos even though he's related to them.

Joe Bonanno painted a certain picture of his own clan within the Castellammare family, but he didn't experience their activities much in Sicily firsthand and his opinion was biased. The Buccellatos are probably the most connected family in the history of the city and probably have their own viewpoint on what happened with the Magaddinos and Bonventres. Like Felice said, it is the Buccellatos who have always been the power in that family, so they probably viewed the Bonventre-Magaddino clan as a rebel faction in their family.

The Asaros have been related to the Bonventres for many generations now and that's probably how they're connected to Jack Bonventre and his father Antonino, both current Queens Bonanno members. You don't typically see the Asaros mentioned in the same breath as the other names that have been powerful both here and in Sicily (i.e. Bonventre, Magaddino, Buccellato, Evola) but they have had members in the Bonanno family now for well over 100 years as well as powerful members in Sicily. Not too many families go back that far in both countries.

[Angelo Santino]

I recommend messaging JimmyB on here if you want to talk about the factions in Castellammare and some of the historical relationships. He's got a lot of knowledge on that topic and I've learned a lot from him. He also doesn't try to paint an unrealistic picture of the Buccellatos even though he's related to them.

Joe Bonanno painted a certain picture of his own clan within the Castellammare family, but he didn't experience their activities much in Sicily firsthand and his opinion was biased. The Buccellatos are probably the most connected family in the history of the city and probably have their own viewpoint on what happened with the Magaddinos and Bonventres. Like Felice said, it is the Buccellatos who have always been the power in that family, so they probably viewed the Bonventre-Magaddino clan as a rebel faction in their family.

The Asaros have been related to the Bonventres for many generations now and that's probably how they're connected to Jack Bonventre and his father Antonino, both current Queens Bonanno members. You don't typically see the Asaros mentioned in the same breath as the other names that have been powerful both here and in Sicily (i.e. Bonventre, Magaddino, Buccellato, Evola) but they have had members in the Bonanno family now for well over 100 years as well as powerful members in Sicily. Not too many families go back that far in both countries.

I spoke with Jimmyb several times and he knows his stuff. We're both Castellammaresi but there was nothing I could assist him with that he didn't already know. It wasn't a large family (most outside of Palermo were an average of 10-20 members, these groups wern't set up to be armies, that was an American NY rendition/addition/improvise depending how you look at it.). CDG is interesting because it was a very self contained community. It's main diet is fish, most live to be 80. In the mid to late 1800's, the top tier class were the sailors. Castellammaresi were known for their naval qualities (enough so that by 1880 there were Cast. colonies in Rome, Naples, Tuscany and in the OC stratosphere Nick Schiro ran an Italo-American passenger ship and Maranzano was an immigration violator with whom he helped get over.) CDG was a relatively upper class city by most standards, which rebuked the common thought of the day (1900's) regarding organized crime as solely an economic phenonemon. CDG was better privileged than most towns and still maintained a higher than average murder rate (opposed to non-Mafia cities). In the 1880's Duke Calvino was captured for ransom and people from CDG were involved as well as other Trapani cities.

Jimmyb has a book coming out on Detroit 1900-1940, giving his Cast. roots and how I know he will approach it will be an enlightening and educating read.

[Angelo Santino]

I spoke with Jimmyb several times and he knows his stuff. We're both Castellammaresi but there was nothing I could assist him with that he didn't already know. It wasn't a large family (most outside of Palermo were an average of 10-20 members, these groups wern't set up to be armies, that was an American NY rendition/addition/improvise depending how you look at it.). CDG is interesting because it was a very self contained community. It's main diet is fish, most live to be 80. In the mid to late 1800's, the top tier class were the sailors. Castellammaresi were known for their naval qualities (enough so that by 1880 there were Cast. colonies in Rome, Naples, Tuscany and in the OC stratosphere Nick Schiro ran an Italo-American passenger ship and Maranzano was an immigration violator with whom he helped get over.) CDG was a relatively upper class city by most standards, which rebuked the common thought of the day (1900's) regarding organized crime as solely an economic phenonemon. CDG was better privileged than most towns and still maintained a higher than average murder rate (opposed to non-Mafia cities). In the 1880's Duke Calvino was captured for ransom and people from CDG were involved as well as other Trapani cities.

Jimmyb has a book coming out on Detroit 1900-1940, giving his Cast. roots and how I know he will approach it will be an enlightening and educating read.

One thing I forgot to mention is, if you read the first part of Joe Bonanno's book, his main aspirations in his early life including becoming a sailor. Those were the athletes, actors and relaity TV stars of the day in CDG. Just to give some perspective.

JBonanno came froma strong mafia bloodline, see below:








Age 28 is a young age but he had alot of relatives around him. He was a mafia snob but he also had the charisma to put himself into such a position, after less than 3 years (at most) of being formally made.

[toto]

In Bonanno's obituary it mentioned he had cousins in Sicily, France, Tunisia and Australia.

Also, most of the Palermo families are smaller about average 20 members each. The bigger families are all in Trapani province about average 50 members each.

[Angelo Santino]

In Bonanno's obituary it mentioned he had cousins in Sicily, France, Tunisia and Australia.

Also, most of the Palermo families are smaller about average 20 members each. The bigger families are all in Trapani province about average 50 members each.

His wife's family came from Tunis. What time and what family amounted to over 50 members?

[toto]

In Bonanno's obituary it mentioned he had cousins in Sicily, France, Tunisia and Australia.

Also, most of the Palermo families are smaller about average 20 members each. The bigger families are all in Trapani province about average 50 members each.

His wife's family came from Tunis. What time and what family amounted to over 50 members?

I couldn't find the report right now with numbers of mafiosi per province. I divided the number by the number of families. As soon as I find which report the numbers of mafiosi is in I will post it here.

Also keep in mind, Trapani province has only 15 mafia families which is same number as Caltanissetta. Compare with Agrigento which has 43 families or Palermo (city) which has 34 families and Palermo (province) which has 45 families.

This should give you the reason alone why Trapani families can be larger than other ones. However, as soon as I find the numbers I will post them.

[Angelo Santino]

In Bonanno's obituary it mentioned he had cousins in Sicily, France, Tunisia and Australia.

Also, most of the Palermo families are smaller about average 20 members each. The bigger families are all in Trapani province about average 50 members each.

His wife's family came from Tunis. What time and what family amounted to over 50 members?

I couldn't find the report right now with numbers of mafiosi per province. I divided the number by the number of families. As soon as I find which report the numbers of mafiosi is in I will post it here.

Also keep in mind, Trapani province has only 15 mafia families which is same number as Caltanissetta. Compare with Agrigento which has 43 families or Palermo (city) which has 34 families and Palermo (province) which has 45 families.

This should give you the reason alone why Trapani families can be larger than other ones. However, as soon as I find the numbers I will post them.

Yes, Palermo citta and province have the largest congestion of membership. According to Leonardo Messina, ten people are needed in order to set up a family. And it seems many families fit that standard. In Corleone, there were only 39 members, including prisoners and fugitives. Carini had 16 members and 9 associates. The family of Corso Dei Mille had 65 members and 38 associates. Catania had 44 members at its peak. But Catania had to deal with non-affiliated criminals, Calderone speaks of this, which is why membership increased. It largely depends on the area and what it is needed.

I guess I was trying to make the distinction between Sicily and America, mainly New York where families- at their peak- had over 400 members. (One informant even said Carlo Gambino had over 75 or 79 capos!) In Sicily, the structure wasn't set up that way. I'd argue that your midwestern families like Detroit or Kansas City followed a closer Sicilian model of small membership. It's not seen as weak to be small but larger pieces of the pie for actual members. In NYC it was a free for all and families had to scoop up a prospect before another family did, which lead to a loosening of "honorable" classifications. Other cities didn't have to deal with that. If Detroit refuses to make you, that's that unless you plan to try your luck in another city elsewhere.

In NYC, 1912, when the Gambino Family had grown quite large, dwarfing the other two families, it split into two groups. In 1910 in Palermo, the same happened with the Olivuzza and Piana dei Colli families which split into 3 or 4 each. Palermo, unlike NY at the time, tried to maintain a status quo. But under Morello and then D'Aquila, that wasn't attempted. They could have split up NYC 5 to 20 different ways but that didn't happen.

[Pogo The Clown]

Those are some pretty small ratio of associates. The closest thing to that ration in the US was the DeCavalcante family.

(One informant even said Carlo Gambino had over 75 or 79 capos!)

I think the actual number was about 24.


Pogo

[toto]

Things are changing. Mandamenti are getting larger i.e. more families in less mandamenti. This trend started with Lo Piccolo when he expanded San Lorenzo to take in more families so now it has 10 families. They increase in manpower but still giving the appearance of separate families. Camporeale mandamento now has 10 families including Partinico and San Giuseppe Jato which 20 years ago had own separate mandamento each.