What was the Combaneesh?

[PolackTony]

Biagio Pinto was the father-in-law of Thomas Cennamo; Cennamo was married to daughter Angelina Pinto. Per his 1893 arrival in the US Biagio Pinto was indeed from Salerno, but the passenger manifest didn’t give origins more granular than the provincial level. His wife, Marion Morinello, seems to have been from Acquavella, in the Cilento area in the south of Salerno province. Based on the surname, Cennamo was evidently Campano as well, but Cennamo is found all over Campano, and not only in Salerno province. Having said that, it is found in the Cilento area, so that is the best guess for Cennamo’s origin, as I wasn’t able to find anything myself looking into him.

This could be significant, in that there seems to have been a network of Cilentani Camorristi operating in the Scranton and Pittsburgh areas in the 1900s-1920s. Would be interesting to see if/how the PA guys might connect to Buffalo.

[motorfab]

Yes, father-in-law, sorry about that. Here is one of the few articles about Pinto to make up for my mistake ...

[OmarSantista]

Im try to made about ranks between societies

Good job. It's confusing stuff and some elements are left up to the interpreter.

It's hard to compare the 19th century camorra to the 20th century 'ndrangheta to the mafia which has remained the same. As I said, I'm no expert on the modern 'ndrangheta so it's hard for me to elaborate from any authoritative position. I can compare the mafia to camorra though:

1 Boss of bosses was supreme ruler over the entire Mafia (in Sicily or in America). Camorra never had a supreme ruler. Capintesta was voted by local capintriti/capisocieta. There was a capintesta for Naples, Salerno, Terra di Lavoro, etc.

2 Capintesta might be best compared to the Mafia's mandamento. He controls his own group but was voted to be a rep for his and other local groups.

3 Capintrito is the same as caposocieta. It's a society boss over a district or prison room. In Naples there were 12 capintriti. They are the early version of 'ndrini. Comparing them to rappresentanti depends on one's interpretation, technically they headed their own groups but weren't in charge over an entire city and had no captains.

4 Underboss/Contaluolo, both of these are the official number 2 positions within mafia and camorra but their functions are different. Traditionally the Under was an aide meant to serve as a VP selected by the boss. The contaluolo was a voted upon position (like that of consig) and handled the financial aspects of the org. Each capintrito had a contaluolo as did the picciotti in the minor society. If you look at the modern camorra today, they still utilize accountants even though there is no longer a camorra society.

Since there is no longer a Camorra society, how would you describe them today, as the societies offshoot and organizationally? Do clans even meet with other clans if so, is it purely operational? If they met for organizational matters then would it be conceptually like the old society breaking through? or how do you see that. Do they still have rankings spawned from the early society besides the Contaiulo or the the Camorrista di Giornata (which I've recognized in pop culture today via movies and shows, the accountant and a guy that collects the local camorra) or newly created ranks or no ranks at all? I'm mostly asking about older clans, for I know a lot of the piranhas or baby bosses have taken out a lot of senior figures which can disrupt organizations. In fact, Is the younger generation more of what you were referring to Angelo when you said they still utilize accountants today? Side bar- You guys should get Roberto Saviano on the mob archs!! lol.

5 Da Giornata is arguably closer to the role filled by Underboss but lacked the authority of one.

6 Paranza was what the major society called their annual meetings. Chiorma was what the minor society called their annual meetings.

7 Borgata vs Locale... I don't have the answer for that, they're both different. They are arranged in the same fashion but ndrina bosses aren't like captains to the Locale Boss who has his own group. It might be more accurate to compare ndrina bosses to borgata bosses, except 'ndrina bosses dont have captains.

8 The Camorra had a governing body identified in the 1890's called mamasantissima, it wasn't created in the 70's by the 'ndrangheta.

9 To bring the ndrangheta into this comparison is to change the game to 3d chess. It's an evolved version of the original society. Like comparing a small plant to a fully grown tree. Actually that makes sense, here's some code confiscated by the calabrian camorra in america in 1927 (which also mentions the 3 Spanish knights:

“From this day on, it will be baptized the Tree of Knowledge. Behold the stem which must represent the leader of the Honorable Society. Behold the branches that must represent the arm of the Society. Behold the smaller branches of this tree which represent the Picciotti di Sgarro. Behold the flowers which represent the Giovani d'Honore. And all those leaves that you see on the ground are leaves that, not having the strength to keep their place upon the plant, fell, and they represent our comrades who have fallen into disgrace. If this tree is uprooted by a storm or by the police, this tree will revive more strongly and vigorous than before.”

[Angelo Santino]

bla bla bla

You quoted me but posted no response. Was that a mistake? If so I'd like to hear what you and everyone else says. Looking at my article 3 on the structure I feel it could be expanded upon in regards to the Org Vs Op argument because that's a Camorra factor too.

Edit:

This?

Since there is no longer a Camorra society, how would you describe them today, as the societies offshoot and organizationally? Do clans even meet with other clans if so, is it purely operational? If they met for organizational matters then would it be conceptually like the old society breaking through? or how do you see that. Do they still have rankings spawned from the early society besides the Contaiulo or the the Camorrista di Giornata (which I've recognized in pop culture today via movies and shows, the accountant and a guy that collects the local camorra) or newly created ranks or no ranks at all? I'm mostly asking about older clans, for I know a lot of the piranhas or baby bosses have taken out a lot of senior figures which can disrupt organizations. In fact, Is the younger generation more of what you were referring to Angelo when you said they still utilize accountants today? Side bar- You guys should get Roberto Saviano on the mob archs!! lol.

I would describe the 'ndrangheta as the evolved Camorra from whence it originated. Think about it like we do the Sicilian Mafia, in Favora in the 1870's it was called Fratellanza, in the 1980's it was called Cosa Nostra, same thing just evolved. From there, Cutolo started as an 'ndranghetisti before forming the NCO, he went into Puglia and tried to expand, the Pugliese went to the 'ndrangheta and saught permission to form the SCU. Basically the 'ndrangheta provided the lifeline for most of the "new" 20th century mafie in Italy. This 'ndrangheta, in it's younger years, was camorra. But it never had an official name, it just evolved and eventually other doti/grades were added above that of camorrista to which it made no sense to refer to The Society as Camorra since it stopped being the highest grade.

As for the "Neapolitan Camorra" today, it has no links to the 19th century honored society, no unified structure nor any recognized society among them. Campania OC is like cartels or highly organized US gangs, they each do their own thing but are aware of each other. The official version is that the Neapolitan Camorra was killed off in 1912 and disbanded in 1915 but, if if the Camorra of the city of Naples decided to disband they didn't speak for the Camorra beyond the city which, by the 20th century the cat was already out of the bag, it was in Campania, Puglia, Calabria, Sicily. In the 1920's, Mussolini went hard at the Camorra in Campania and seems to have effectively knocked it out. As for some of these Camorra groups today in the province and what, if any, connections (or continuation) they had with the old camorra in province-- we don't know. I'm not ruling out that some of these provincial camorra groups have continuity with the 19th century camorra only just I've seen no evidence for it.

My own 0.00 cents is that Campania outgrew the system of secret societies and instead embraced gangsterism. I'm not saying anything original, Saviano once said that the Camorra is more influenced by Pulp Fiction and Scarface more so than The Godfather or Goodfellas. It's disorganized organized crime but that doesn't make them any less effective. In fact, their "system" makes them more effective than the "organized societies" of Calabria and Sicily when it comes to certain aspects.

Saviano would charge us and we ain't paying him, lol.

Saviano is.. he's a good marketer. He's not the only reporter that has received death threats but he damned sure knew how to capitalize on it. Anyone who reads his famous book needs to ask themselves, what did he expose to warrant such a threat? My opinion is very little. I wont call him a fraud but I will say he has a vested interest in the narrative he's presented and he's built a brand around himself. Gomorra and ZeroZeroZero were some great series that he put his name on.

Hopefully Tony chimes in who may have his own separate take on all of this.

[OmarSantista]

bla bla bla

You quoted me but posted no response. Was that a mistake? If so I'd like to hear what you and everyone else says. Looking at my article 3 on the structure I feel it could be expanded upon in regards to the Org Vs Op argument because that's a Camorra factor too.

Edit:

This?

Since there is no longer a Camorra society, how would you describe them today, as the societies offshoot and organizationally? Do clans even meet with other clans if so, is it purely operational? If they met for organizational matters then would it be conceptually like the old society breaking through? or how do you see that. Do they still have rankings spawned from the early society besides the Contaiulo or the the Camorrista di Giornata (which I've recognized in pop culture today via movies and shows, the accountant and a guy that collects the local camorra) or newly created ranks or no ranks at all? I'm mostly asking about older clans, for I know a lot of the piranhas or baby bosses have taken out a lot of senior figures which can disrupt organizations. In fact, Is the younger generation more of what you were referring to Angelo when you said they still utilize accountants today? Side bar- You guys should get Roberto Saviano on the mob archs!! lol.

I would describe the 'ndrangheta as the evolved Camorra from whence it originated. Think about it like we do the Sicilian Mafia, in Favora in the 1870's it was called Fratellanza, in the 1980's it was called Cosa Nostra, same thing just evolved. From there, Cutolo started as an 'ndranghetisti before forming the NCO, he went into Puglia and tried to expand, the Pugliese went to the 'ndrangheta and saught permission to form the SCU. Basically the 'ndrangheta provided the lifeline for most of the "new" 20th century mafie in Italy. This 'ndrangheta, in it's younger years, was camorra. But it never had an official name, it just evolved and eventually other doti/grades were added above that of camorrista to which it made no sense to refer to The Society as Camorra since it stopped being the highest grade.

As for the "Neapolitan Camorra" today, it has no links to the 19th century honored society, no unified structure nor any recognized society among them. Campania OC is like cartels or highly organized US gangs, they each do their own thing but are aware of each other. The official version is that the Neapolitan Camorra was killed off in 1912 and disbanded in 1915 but, if if the Camorra of the city of Naples decided to disband they didn't speak for the Camorra beyond the city which, by the 20th century the cat was already out of the bag, it was in Campania, Puglia, Calabria, Sicily. In the 1920's, Mussolini went hard at the Camorra in Campania and seems to have effectively knocked it out. As for some of these Camorra groups today in the province and what, if any, connections (or continuation) they had with the old camorra in province-- we don't know. I'm not ruling out that some of these provincial camorra groups have continuity with the 19th century camorra only just I've seen no evidence for it.

My own 0.00 cents is that Campania outgrew the system of secret societies and instead embraced gangsterism. I'm not saying anything original, Saviano once said that the Camorra is more influenced by Pulp Fiction and Scarface more so than The Godfather or Goodfellas. It's disorganized organized crime but that doesn't make them any less effective. In fact, their "system" makes them more effective than the "organized societies" of Calabria and Sicily when it comes to certain aspects.

Saviano would charge us and we ain't paying him, lol.

Saviano is.. he's a good marketer. He's not the only reporter that has received death threats but he damned sure knew how to capitalize on it. Anyone who reads his famous book needs to ask themselves, what did he expose to warrant such a threat? My opinion is very little. I wont call him a fraud but I will say he has a vested interest in the narrative he's presented and he's built a brand around himself. Gomorra and ZeroZeroZero were some great series that he put his name on.

Hopefully Tony chimes in who may have his own separate take on all of this.

Yep that's it, my mistake. Everything you said makes sense thanks for the explanation. That's a key point about Cutolo. I didn't know Mussolini depleted them. It's interesting to wonder if some of those 19th century society practices are still in play in Campania. However, you're most likely right about them having grown out of it based on what they look like today. I'm curious about your statement along the lines of; their system being more effective now, in certain aspects than before. I assume it'll be in an upcoming article so I wont pry.

Lol at the Saviano joke, I haven't read the book but I take your word for it. I definitely get what you mean though I would say he somewhat inflated himself, respecfully. Like you said it's become a brand at this point. I've watched both of those shows about twice so I'm not complaining.

[Ukthesis23]

JoelTurner wrote:
> [quote=scagghiuni post_id=245593 time=1670494998 user_id=138]
> so Vito Genovese was a member of the camorra before?
> [/quote]
>
> I've seen him mentioned as a former Camorra member on other threads.
> There's also a story about how he visited a Camorra member who was
> imprisoned but I don't know the details on that.

That was in my book "The Origins of Organized Crime in America " When Paretti, one of the Neapolitan gang, was in the death house in 1927. His visitor list included Vito Genovese and volpe from Pittsburgh. Paretti was convicted in a gang fight involving the Sicilian faction. A theory is that they all united at that point. Joe Valachi was told about then that differences between the Sicilians and other Italians were gone.

[B.]

I think Dave mentions it in his book but interestingly both Volpe and Amato used a Queens address when they visited that I believe belonged to one of the other visitors.

[scagghiuni]

I would describe the 'ndrangheta as the evolved Camorra from whence it originated. Think about it like we do the Sicilian Mafia, in Favora in the 1870's it was called Fratellanza, in the 1980's it was called Cosa Nostra, same thing just evolved.

it would be interesting to know the name of the Sicilian mafia in 1800 but it probably didn't have a real name despite it already being a unitary and hierarchical organization

[Angelo Santino]

I would describe the 'ndrangheta as the evolved Camorra from whence it originated. Think about it like we do the Sicilian Mafia, in Favora in the 1870's it was called Fratellanza, in the 1980's it was called Cosa Nostra, same thing just evolved.

it would be interesting to know the name of the Sicilian mafia in 1800 but it probably didn't have a real name despite it already being a unitary and hierarchical organization

These are the earliest instances of mafia being identified with varying regional/area names:

In New York in the 1920's, Clemente (Corleonese) referred to the NY mafia as the Fratellanza which as we know was used in Agrigento.

(Worth noting that there were groups in the 1820's Sicily that are hard to confirm, law enforcement was calling them Carbonari. Maybe they were or maybe it was mafia and they didnt know what to call them. )

In a way, the US makeup was somewhat similar with Cosa Nostra used on the East Coast while Outfit, Organization etc was used in other cities. When Valachi stated Cosa Nostra as the formal name, members in the midwest had never heard that used and theorized that "Casa Nostra" (our house) would make more sense. We know there was a time when members would state their affiliation as being in the "House of (Boss' name)" which both members of Lupo's Family did as well as Maranzano himself when stating his position within the Bonannos.

The aspect of local regional names is also seen with what we call the 19th century Camorra, it was also called Mala Vita, Fibbia, Picciotteria, Familiglia Montelbano, etc. Behind these names, they all had the same structure with different variences. In Mafia the basic component is the Family headed by a Capo and Vice-Capo with a Consig, if large enough capidecina are a thing, no matter if the Family is in Palermo, NY, Philly or Chicago. With Camorra the basic component is the Society or 'ndrina headed by a Society Leader/Capintrito/Capobastone and a Contajuolo/Contabile followed by 3 degrees of membership- Cam, Pic and G.D.

Both groups, no matter what their localized names were, all seem to have used or considered themselves "the honored society."