Bonanno's attempted LA takeover / John Roselli

[B.]

We've heard plenty of references to Joe Bonanno's attempted takeover of LA. The common gist seems to be: in 1961, Joe Bonanno put together around 40 guys to back up Bill Bonanno so that he could take control of the LA family from Frank Desimone. This was reported to the Commission, who seem to have thwarted the attempt and added this to their list of complaints about Bonanno, with this being one of the major ones that was a recurring topic of discussion among bosses and Commission members.

I came across a couple different references in old FBI files from an informant who claimed that in 1961, Bonanno had approached John Roselli and Joe Giammona, asking them to join the coup, which they agreed to do. However, they went to LA boss Frank Desimone, who took the matter to the Commission, and it sounds like the men went to NYC to discuss this with someone in NYC, believed by the informant to be Carlo Gambino. The informant says Joe Bonanno was ordered to "give up his plan" and from this point on, and Bonanno held a grudge against Roselli. In addition, Roselli lost "some respect" from the Chicago family.

This is the first I've heard of Roselli's involvement or really any specifics except what was mentioned in the first paragraph. Of course it could be inaccurate, as we don't know who the sources might be, but it's more info than I've heard elsewhere.

- Has anyone come across other names from the LA family (or other families) who supported Bonanno or were otherwise involved? This info, if true, means that Bonanno was recruiting members from other families to aid in the takeover, possibly with the support of some Chicago element. Were they included in the "40 men" number that is often mentioned, or was that purely Bonanno members/associates on the west coast? Bill had been living in the San Jose area and was said to be associating closely with SJ / SF members, which included relatives and other longtime Bonanno loyalists. Were they involved?

- According to Fratianno and FBI files from the 1960s, the LA family had been struggling since Jack Dragna's death and there was dissatisfaction in the ranks. I know that Joe Bonanno had some kind of relationship with Frank Bompensiero and helped Bompensiero and represented him to the Commission when he ran into issues with the LA administration, so Bomp may have been part of the pro-Bonanno group in the LA family.

- Which family was Roselli officially with at this point? My understanding is he started with Chicago, transferred to LA, then transferred back to Chicago -- I believe he was with Chicago by 1961 but I have had trouble following Roselli with all of the over-the-top "syndicate" hype about him.

- What is known about Joseph Giammona? He was ID'd in the late 1960s as a soldier in LA capodecina Angelo Polizzi's crew.

- When did Charles Battaglia transfer to the Bonannos and what was the backstory? Tucson was within LA's territory, so he wouldn't have transferred because of location. Did his brother John stay with the LA family? Informants / bugs have mentioned issues between the Battaglia brothers, with Charles' wife allegedly having an affair with John. In 1967, Charles was attempting to transfer back to the LA family and met with capodecina Angelo Polizzi about this. After Desimone's death, Battaglia was said to be attending a meeting in LA to vote on the new boss, so seems he was an LA member again by this time. Given his loyalty to Bonanno through most of the Bonanno conflict, Battaglia is a likely candidate for the Bonanno faction set to "invade" the LA family.

- Fratianno mentions that "Chicago capo" John Franzone had tried to take over San Francisco in the late 1940s and Dominic Galiano told him he murdered Nick DeJohn on Franzone's orders in 1947. Anyone familiar with this other, earlier alleged attempted takeover of a CA family by Franzone?

[Confederate]

In 1961, I believe L.A. was represented by Chicago on the Commission since the Outfit had final say west of the Mississippi. However, I also read where L.A. was represented on the Commission by one of the New York Families (don't remember which one). So there are conflicting stories concerning that issue. Roselli was the Chicago Man in Los Angeles. He was sent there by Chicago. Why would Chicago give up control over Roselli to the weak Los Angeles Mickey Mouse Mafia? Doesn't make any sense?
Have no idea about the Bonnano story and L.A. However, common sense dictates that New York or Chicago would never have allowed it to happen. Bonnano and his son were lucky to be alive in the first place, let alone trying to take over another Family and think everybody would be okay with it. Sounds like a fairy tale to me. LOL

[Pogo The Clown]

According to Frattiano, Roselli transfered back to Chicago after Dragna died.


Pogo

[Stroccos]

I think Charles Battaglia moved to Tuscan sometime around 1960 , I thought Tucson was a open city ? You had Pete licavoli financing operations , you had the bonnanno group , the Cleveland Sydicate also had operations there .

[Confederate]

I think Charles Battaglia moved to Tuscan sometime around 1960 , I thought Tucson was a open city ? You had Pete licavoli financing operations , you had the bonnanno group , the Cleveland Sydicate also had operations there .

You are correct. Tuscon was an open area. Chicago had Paulie Schiro there. The L.A. Family couldn't even come close to controlling their own area which was huge, let alone Tuscon. lol

[Snakes]

Chicago, Accardo and Giancana specifically, were upset that Bonanno had installed himself in Tucson because it allegedly interfered in their interests. So, Tucson was only an open territory so long as it didn't upset the apple cart in Chicago as that city controlled all of the western families. If Bonanno wanted to create a new family in Tucson or take over L.A. without the consent of Chicago, this would obviously fly in the face of that.

[B.]

Thanks for the added info, guys... some interesting ideas to consider.

I was aware of Tucson being "open", but what I mean by "within LA's territory" is it was still close to LA and there is no obvious reason for Charlie Battaglia to have transferred to Bonanno based on location. The only explanation I've seen is from a CI in the late 1960s who said Battaglia transferred to the Bonanno family because he didn't get along with Frank Desimone, but that doesn't tell us much about how an LA soldier quickly became a Bonanno captain and hardline loyalist during the war, or what role he might have played in Bonanno's attempted 1961 takeover of LA. Maybe more is mentioned in the Bonannos' books that I'm forgetting. There is also reason to believe the Bonanno family had a presence in Arizona and California prior to the 1950s. I would have to check Bill's books, but he references an earlier captain there.

Fratianno makes it clear that at the time of his induction Roselli was a soldier in the LA family who had previously worked as a hitman for Al Capone in Chicago. After Fratianno's release from prison, he learned that Roselli transferred to Chicago and arranged to transfer there himself, which apparently Giancana and Desimone both approved, but Desimone hadn't told Licata who rejected Fratianno's transfer when he became boss. What is relevant to this discussion, though, is Roselli's affiliation in 1961, when he was referenced in connection to the Bonanno situation. What's interesting is that both Roselli and Battaglia transferred out of the LA family when Desimone took over and were involved with Bonanno to some degree. Bompensiero also sought a transfer that was rejected and he had a connection to Bonanno, too.

There was also Biaggio Bonventre and possibly a brother of his who were LA family members. Bonventre was said to be from San Vito Lo Capo, not far from Castellammare, but his supposed brother's immigration records show him from Castellammare. All other Bonventres in the US mafia were Castellammarese who were either directly or indirectly related to Joe Bonanno, so it makes you wonder if he had a connection to these two as well.

Not sure if Fratianno had any connection to Bonanno, but he makes the total at least four members who wanted to transfer away from Desimone/Licata, so it shows you that Bonanno was capitalizing on an existing situation with his supposed "takeover". Informants from the 1960s talk about how Desimone had alienated his captains and soldiers by rarely meeting with them, instead using underboss Licata as an intermediary, and rejecting the membership's involvement in many rackets and crimes with the excuse that there was "too much heat."

By the way -- thanks for clearing up your differences regarding the earlier argument in this thread. If this turns into another big Chicago argument I'd be happy to have Soliai delete the thread or request to delete many of the posts. No way in hell am I going to be responsible for another 20 page "Chicago argument"... I already get sucked into every Montreal thread these days. Thanks...

[Stroccos]

Thanks for the added info, guys... some interesting ideas to consider.

I was aware of Tucson being "open", but what I mean by "within LA's territory" is it was still close to LA and there is no obvious reason for Charlie Battaglia to have transferred to Bonanno based on location. The only explanation I've seen is from a CI in the late 1960s who said Battaglia transferred to the Bonanno family because he didn't get along with Frank Desimone, but that doesn't tell us much about how an LA soldier quickly became a Bonanno captain and hardline loyalist during the war, or what role he might have played in Bonanno's attempted 1961 takeover of LA. Maybe more is mentioned in the Bonannos' books that I'm forgetting. There is also reason to believe the Bonanno family had a presence in Arizona and California prior to the 1950s. I would have to check Bill's books, but he references an earlier captain there.

Joe Bonanno has been investing in Tucson real estate since the 40’s

[B.]

Thanks for the added info, guys... some interesting ideas to consider.

I was aware of Tucson being "open", but what I mean by "within LA's territory" is it was still close to LA and there is no obvious reason for Charlie Battaglia to have transferred to Bonanno based on location. The only explanation I've seen is from a CI in the late 1960s who said Battaglia transferred to the Bonanno family because he didn't get along with Frank Desimone, but that doesn't tell us much about how an LA soldier quickly became a Bonanno captain and hardline loyalist during the war, or what role he might have played in Bonanno's attempted 1961 takeover of LA. Maybe more is mentioned in the Bonannos' books that I'm forgetting. There is also reason to believe the Bonanno family had a presence in Arizona and California prior to the 1950s. I would have to check Bill's books, but he references an earlier captain there.

Joe Bonanno has been investing in Tucson real estate since the 40’s

Yeah, what I mean is a decina or some kind of member base. Giuseppe Venza is one name who has been floated as an early California / Arizona capodecina.

[Stroccos]

Thanks for the added info, guys... some interesting ideas to consider.

I was aware of Tucson being "open", but what I mean by "within LA's territory" is it was still close to LA and there is no obvious reason for Charlie Battaglia to have transferred to Bonanno based on location. The only explanation I've seen is from a CI in the late 1960s who said Battaglia transferred to the Bonanno family because he didn't get along with Frank Desimone, but that doesn't tell us much about how an LA soldier quickly became a Bonanno captain and hardline loyalist during the war, or what role he might have played in Bonanno's attempted 1961 takeover of LA. Maybe more is mentioned in the Bonannos' books that I'm forgetting. There is also reason to believe the Bonanno family had a presence in Arizona and California prior to the 1950s. I would have to check Bill's books, but he references an earlier captain there.

Joe Bonanno has been investing in Tucson real estate since the 40’s

Yeah, what I mean is a decina or some kind of member base. Giuseppe Venza is one name who has been floated as an early California / Arizona capodecina.

Who tried to kill Charles Battaglia’s brother in the early 60’s ? Could that be why he switched families ?

[Antiliar]

Confederate: Chris and I both know Kenji. We used to communicate all the time. For the older material he depends on books like "The Last Mafioso" just like us.

B: If you compare Peter Maas's "The Valachi Papers" with Valachi's own memoirs, you will notice the difference between Valachi's material and Maas's narrative. The same thing applies for Jimmy Fratianno and Ovid Demaris. Fratianno later sued Demaris, I think perhaps for embellishing his words. The lawsuit was dismissed, but there is probably an element of truth to Fratianno's claim. Before he wrote "The Last Mafioso," Demaris wrote "Captive City," which was a well-written book about the Chicago Mob. Before that, however, in the early 1960s, he put out a bunch of cheesy pseudo-biographies that were more like cheap novels full of fictional dialogue. If you notice, the dialogue in "The Last Mafioso" is very smooth, but I don't think it started out that way. Demaris said he recorded Fratianno on tape, but what's in the book is not a transcription. It's cleaned up. There's also a lot of narrative. So what you think might be coming from Fratianno may actually be from Demaris. That means the reader has to be careful and can't necessarily take everything literally. If you compare what's in the book with his FBI files, his testimony before the Kefauver Committee, and material on him in the HSCA collection, you'll notice that not all of it jibes.

[B.]

Thanks for the added info, guys... some interesting ideas to consider.

I was aware of Tucson being "open", but what I mean by "within LA's territory" is it was still close to LA and there is no obvious reason for Charlie Battaglia to have transferred to Bonanno based on location. The only explanation I've seen is from a CI in the late 1960s who said Battaglia transferred to the Bonanno family because he didn't get along with Frank Desimone, but that doesn't tell us much about how an LA soldier quickly became a Bonanno captain and hardline loyalist during the war, or what role he might have played in Bonanno's attempted 1961 takeover of LA. Maybe more is mentioned in the Bonannos' books that I'm forgetting. There is also reason to believe the Bonanno family had a presence in Arizona and California prior to the 1950s. I would have to check Bill's books, but he references an earlier captain there.

Joe Bonanno has been investing in Tucson real estate since the 40’s

Yeah, what I mean is a decina or some kind of member base. Giuseppe Venza is one name who has been floated as an early California / Arizona capodecina.

Who tried to kill Charles Battaglia’s brother in the early 60’s ? Could that be why he switched families ?

Not sure. My entire knowledge of the Battaglias is what I've posted in this thread so far.

In the mid-1960s Magaddino was recorded gossiping about how John Battaglia may have slept with Charles' wife, so all of that could have been in the mix here, too.

[Stroccos]

Thanks for the added info, guys... some interesting ideas to consider.

I was aware of Tucson being "open", but what I mean by "within LA's territory" is it was still close to LA and there is no obvious reason for Charlie Battaglia to have transferred to Bonanno based on location. The only explanation I've seen is from a CI in the late 1960s who said Battaglia transferred to the Bonanno family because he didn't get along with Frank Desimone, but that doesn't tell us much about how an LA soldier quickly became a Bonanno captain and hardline loyalist during the war, or what role he might have played in Bonanno's attempted 1961 takeover of LA. Maybe more is mentioned in the Bonannos' books that I'm forgetting. There is also reason to believe the Bonanno family had a presence in Arizona and California prior to the 1950s. I would have to check Bill's books, but he references an earlier captain there.

Joe Bonanno has been investing in Tucson real estate since the 40’s

Yeah, what I mean is a decina or some kind of member base. Giuseppe Venza is one name who has been floated as an early California / Arizona capodecina.

Who tried to kill Charles Battaglia’s brother in the early 60’s ? Could that be why he switched families ?

Not sure. My entire knowledge of the Battaglias is what I've posted in this thread so far.

In the mid-1960s Magaddino was recorded gossiping about how John Battaglia may have slept with Charles' wife, so all of that could have been in the mix here, too.

Apparently john Battaglia was shot by his wife , he abused her , so maybe his brother was doing her lol

[Angelo Santino]

Kenji's a good guy who got Teddy Persico laid and partied with the Colombos but he is not a historian. Anything before his time (mid-90's) he requires help from Craig Fiato or recently deceased James Caci (who he was still in contact with even after he flipped amazingly). Most of his contributions involved the shedding of mob invincibility. We didn't hear about LA for 25 years so that meant for many that Pete Milano was keeping it on the DL secretly rebuilding his family with zips and east coast expats making money not headlines like old-school LCN all the way... and then Kenji came out with Milano being basically retired, there's no Consig, Capo Caci had no crew and used bikers for muscle and an associate produced a Soprano XXX parody. Interesting bits about semi-recent events but he doesn't come from history.

In regards to Antiliar, when it comes to this topic he doesn't speak from the heart but with his head. There's no unchecked bias or hidden agenda to make things out to be what they're not. Unless thinking aloud he won't make a statement without a source to back it up.

[Angelo Santino]

Roselli passed through Chicago from Boston in 1923/24 when Torrio was the Outfit boss, and for health reasons quickly moved to California where he worked with or for Tony Cornero in 1925 to at least 1926. He made another brief visit to Chicago in 1927 or 28, where he met Capone for the first time, then returned to Los Angeles. It was after that he associated with members of the Los Angeles Family. He wasn't made in Chicago but met Chicago people and was given a referral to people in the Los Angeles Family. At some point he was made into the Los Angeles Family and started working with producers Bryan Foy and Harry Cohn, which is how he got his hands in the Hollywood film industry.

The Tony Cornero Mob got into a war with the August Palumbo mob after the death of city leader Marco Albori. You had Dominic DiCiolla, Sam Matranga (direct descendants of N'Orleans), Rosario DiGiorgio, Cuccia, Tony Bucola and the City Hall Gang. All goes back to Don Bartolo Ballerino and what he set up in 1860's LA when it was still Mexico, the Milano Family predates California statehood.