What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

[Pogo The Clown]

Thanks for the info guys. Also we know that Masseria became Boss after Lupo Saietta was killed trying to break up a fight outside his club.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

What Balsamo did was put his alleged relative Battista as the Gambino Family founder and went as far as to have actual dialogue about NY setting up a Family in New Orleans as well as wanting the Mangano brothers (both) to succeed him. All of which is untrue.

I don't know much about this Galluccio person, but I thought I heard he was with the Gambinos and moved to Naples, but that could be more BS from GV.

Galluccio is listed on the McClellan Hearing (Valachi) charts as a Genovese soldier. He was always considered Genovese until GV made up the story about him and the mysterious Profaci or Lucchese Family informant who was captured in Naples and interviewed with this new information. I wish I had a delete button to remove everything I ever read from GV. His bullshit had a lot of us going until he was cornered with no where else to go.

LOL, same thing with "Chicago." He relayed certain "new information" to us and I remember later on bringing it up later and you just sighed over the phone and said: "Yeah, um, we're gonna have to just forget that because he's not credible." Some of these guys are real pieces of work.

But anyways, ok, Gallucio was Genovese and knowing what we know about "mainlander patterns" that makes much more sense.

[Angelo Santino]

Thanks for the info guys. Also we know that Masseria became Boss after Lupo Saietta was killed trying to break up a fight outside his club.


Pogo

Was this before or after the police found 40 dead bodies buried under his Unione SicilianO headquarters in Harlem?

[Antiliar]

Thanks for the info guys. Also we know that Masseria became Boss after Lupo Saietta was killed trying to break up a fight outside his club.


Pogo

You're welcome, but huh? Masseria became boss after "Lupo Saietta" was killed trying to break up a fight? Is that something from one of Balsamo's books that I skipped over? There was no such person as "Lupo Saietta." Ignazio Lupo was (we believe) the boss of the crime family D'Aquila became boss of in 1911 or 12, and the brother-in-law of Morello (he married a Terranova). Saitta (not "SaiEtta") was his mother's maiden name; his father was Rocco Lupo. Lupo died of natural causes in 1947.

[Pogo The Clown]

It was an inside joke. That little nugget of info was from Balsamo's Under the Clock book.


Pogo

[B.]

Some other bits from the Real Thing regarding Vincent Mangano:

- Valachi ran into Vincent Mangano at the track, who he describes as "boss in the old family" who "took the place of one of the guys that died on Pelham Parkway" (Mineo). Might be reading into it a bit, but him calling them "the old family" is an interesting choice of words. When Valachi saw Mangano at the track, he tried to avoid him because Mangano had been against Maranzano and Valachi still felt weird about that, but Mangano put his arm around Valachi and asked him why he didn't want to talk. Valachi told him it was because he had horses on his mind. Mangano told him "When you are going to pass up people like me because of the horses it's time for you to quit."

- Mangano asked Valachi about what he had bet, and when he found out Valachi had bet much more than him (Mangano), Valachi explained that guys like Mangano (i.e. bosses) can afford to bet smaller amounts because that is what "all the millionaires bet", but "us guys who ain't doing to well try to win our expenses" and "go in a hole".

- Mangano and Valachi ended up watching the races together and Mangano told Valachi he had a lot of respect for him, saying that as an "old timer" he appreciates and respects the guys who got rid of Joe Masseria and Peter Morello. Valachi responded by saying that despite that, the former Maranzano guys like himself now "got to walk with our heads down because our boss went crazy." Mangano told him "that's why Vito took you guys with him, he wants to make sure you get a fair deal."

- Valachi continued to complain to Mangano about money issues, so Mangano asked him if he had a car. When Valachi said no, mangano offered to lend him a brand new car to get home. When Valachi was home, he could send it back. Mangano ended up letting Valachi use the car for at least a week. Mangano also told Valachi that he had a Judge under his control in Brooklyn named Abruzzo who could help if Valachi ever got in trouble in Brooklyn.

Since there isn't a lot of info out there about Mangano during his time as boss I thought this was pretty good info. What's funny is Valachi seemed to hold Maranzano in a high regard even after his death, given the way he tried to avoid Mangano for being an anti-Maranzano guy. Also pretty amazing how he carried himself toward a boss who was being friendly to him -- blatantly trying to avoid him, not talking to him, then talking to him the way he did about betting/money.

Mangano talking about Masseria and Morello is also pretty big since he was one of their top guys. It doesn't get pointed out much, but Mangano was only a year or two younger than Maranzano and Masseria.

[B.]

Other bits from the Real Thing:

- Valachi talked about attending Charlie Luciano's father's wake in his book, but here he says more. For example, at the wake (which was held in Brooklyn or Long Island) Luciano approached Valachi and Bobby Doyle and Doyle tried to introduce Valachi to Luciano. This pissed Luciano off, who chastised Doyle for "trying to introduce me to one of my own boys." This is also when, as mentioned in the book, Luciano asked Joe why he looked sad and Valachi explained they had taken a big hit in the numbers. Luciano got "Frank" (not sure if Costello, Livorsi, or?) to loan Valachi money on several occasions to cover this. When they continued to get hit in the numbers game, Frank talked to Valachi about staging a "fix" to recoup money but wanted to keep Bobby Doyle out of the plan.

- When Dutch Schultz was killed, Genovese, Luciano, and Mike Coppola took over his numbers business. He says when Ciro Terranova was demoted it took away a lot of Schultz's backing.

- At a later time Valachi and Doyle ran into Luciano, who had previously told Valachi that if he wasn't happy with Tony Bender, he should let Luciano know. Luciano again told Valachi the same thing and Valachi agreed to let him know. Valachi felt that Tom Gagliano (who I previously mentioned made remarks to Bender at a sitdown) had talked to Luciano. Valachi says "I used to be with Tom Gagliano when I started" and "you remember how close I was with Tom." Valachi wanted to tell Charlie more, but was worried that Vito Genovese and Tony Bender would find out and Valachi wanted to get to know Luciano better before he could talk to him about it.

- Valachi says "they made a council of six" to "protect the soldier" and prevent soldiers from being killed just because the boss didn't like them. He says if a soldier did anything wrong, he would get a trial where he is judged by seven men. He says he doesn't remember who the seventh man would be, but the extra man was added to prevent there being a tie vote. He says "everyone was happy about the council." Not sure if he is referring to the Commission or something else -- this sounds like something a bit different.

- Some guy called "Shim" who Valachi had been in Sing Sing with had done something in prison that gave him a bad reputation but it's not clear what. When "Shim" got out, Valachi was called to a meeting with Luciano where he was asked about "Shim". Valachi apparently told the truth but it's not clear what came of this.

- Valachi felt that Luciano was "the only one who made an attempt to take care of me" and was upset when Luciano was sent to prison. He felt whenever he had a leader who advocated for him, something bad happened to them.

- He says after Luciano was sent to Italy, Luciano sent word to the US that he wanted to "change a rule". He did not want to recognize mafia members in Italy and does not want them to be recognized in the US. He says that Luciano did not want to have anything to do with the Italians there because they are troublemakers who cooperate with the police.

- Valachi says Luciano was still boss "all the time he was away". He says that after Luciano left the US that Willie Moretti was acting boss for a while before they elected Frank Costello. Frank Costello was acting boss until the early 1950s when Luciano resigned and Frank Costello "automatically" became boss.

- Bobby Doyle apparently killed three former partners of his, and Valachi felt that Bobby Doyle and Tony Bender were trying to have him killed "legally" and were dying for him to do something wrong so they could have a "case for the council". He says Doyle and Bender spread a rumor to his in-laws that it was Valachi who had killed his father-in-law Tom Reina even though they knew he had not. At another time, Bender told Valachi he needs to "get away" from his in-laws and when Valachi asked why, Bender told him "if I told you why, your hair will come off."

- Valachi's wife apparently received phone calls about Valachi going around with other women. He seems to have felt Tony Bender was responsible.

- Valachi felt that if he didn't have a wife, Bender and Doyle would have killed him without going to the council, as nobody would be looking for him.

- The Gap introduced Valachi to Johnny Roberts. Gap and Roberts co-owned a nightclub on Broadway called the Seven Eleven Club. He says Roberts was one of "the sweetest guys I ever met" and a "nice guy". Roberts owned some other clubs and had a large bootlegging still. Valachi hooked some guys who wanted alcohol up with Roberts' operation, but Roberts had to get Bobby Doyle's approval and give him a cut which pissed Valachi off. Sounds like Roberts may have been an associate on record with Doyle.

[B.]

More Real Thing:

- Vito Genovese made Dom the Sailor a lieutenant, then he demoted him and put Patty Eboli in his place. Valachi felt that Dom the Sailor, Patty Eboli, and Tommy Eboli didn't earn their promotions.

- He says Genovese lied and said people were rats to get them killed so that the council would approve of the murders. He says that Genovese killed a guy named Steve Francis, who was a partner with Vito at the 181 Club, for being a rat but Valachi says in reality he blamed Francis for Anna Genovese's "doings". Valachi says she was a good woman and that Vito is too much of a "nagger". Anna Genovese apparently "stood up" for Valachi when he got married and he thinks highly of her. Valachi says Genovese has someone following Anna and is still in love with her but can't do anything about it because he is afraid of what the mob will think. In prison Genovese asked Valachi about her and was crying.

- Genovese was apparently mad at Chin Gigante for not killing Frank Costello, but then became happy when he (Genovese )"made up with" Costello because Costello "knows people". Seems after Costello stepped down Genovese was happy that he could still use Costello for his connections. Valachi says Genovese did not need to shoot Costello to become boss, only call him and tell him he wanted to be boss and Costello would have given it to him.

- Vito put some guy named Tony Wago/Wayo "on the side" despite him being a "good man" and refused to make him a member. Valachi feels this was because Genovese feared that Tony would get power if he was made. A lot of Valachi's dirt on Vito Genovese, including the issue with Tony Wago, came from Bobby Doyle.

- Valachi says that Genovese "listened to two rats", Vito Agueci and Ralph Wagner. I guess this is in reference to Genovese turning on Valachi.

- He talks about the well-known dispute he had with business partner in his restaurant Frank Luciano (Gambino family) but adds some details that I don't think are in the book. Valachi asked Willie Moretti not to mention this problem to Vito because Vito had just gotten back from Italy. The sitdown about the dispute was supposed to be held between Tony Bender, Frank Luciano, and Charlie Brush (acting captain for hospitalized Joe Riccobono), but Brush couldn't make it so Albert Anastasia stepped in. The dispute ended up with Valachi getting the restaurant as we know.

- Soldier Joe Tortorici had struck Valachi's nephew Fiore Siano (not sure if he was made yet) while they were at Joe Lanza's restaurant following an argument. Valachi says Siano used to be his nephew but he doesn't "want to know him" as his nephew anymore. He says he had told Siano and the Pagano brothers that if a member of Mike Coppola's crew ever took a punch at them to go get a gun and shoot the guy. He says Coppola's crew was known for this. Joe Lanza told Valachi that Pat Pagano had gotten a gun and was about to shoot Tortorici but Lanza stopped him. He said that Tortorici was too drunk to notice the gun. Lanza said he straightened the problem out but Valachi didn't agree and took his crew to confront Tortorici, who apologized and said he didn't know it was Joe's nephew.

- Valachi ran into Frank Scalise at Scalise's brother's store and had coffee with him. Scalise said that he couldn't understand why Valachi was having so much trouble with Scalise's guys and that he would have a talk with them. Valachi says he told Scalise that he (Scalise) is "doing all this because you put these bums in the outfit and they are all getting power crazy", and that Valachi wouldn't "take any nonsense" from them. Scalise replied saying that his people bring him the names of guys and recommend thems so he adds them to the list (of proposed members). He says that it's a good thing he didn't submit another list he had of proposed members and that he's going to stop because the guys he's made have been causing him trouble.

- Scalise recommends that Valachi "pay attention to the people down town as they are the ones who rule", but Valachi says they won't give him a chance. Valachi and Scalise both agreed that "things are going to the dogs". Valachi says by this time he had already heard rumors that Scalise was selling memberships and he did not mention it but says he was trying to drop subtle hints and he felt that Scalise understood.

- Scalise told Valachi that his plan was to visit Italy and that he might stay there because he was a good friend of Charlie Luciano's from the old days (we've seen those photos of them hanging out in the 1920s/30s). He says that Scalise sounded very sad, as he knew that things were not looking good for him.

- Valachi asked Scalise to start spending more time at the Lido (Valachi's restaurant) because it would send a message to Scalise's men who have a problem with Valachi. Valachi says he never had any problems with Scalise's men again.

- Valachi and Scalise drank some whiskey and Tony Anastasia came in, who Valachi had not met. Scalise introduced them and the three of them had a short meeting where Anastasia talked about the docks.

[B.]

More:

- Valachi felt the killing of Willie Moretti wouldn't have been hard to "pass through the council" because Moretti wasn't well-liked. Like in the book, he says this was a "mercy killing". Genovese apparently "worked under the table to have the council vote in his favor" with regards to Solly Moretti. He says Solly Moretti died in jail because he was sick. Not clear what he means about the council here.

- On the Eugene Giannini situation, Luciano apparently said Giannini had been informing for 17 years. Giannini tried to get close to Luciano in Italy, but Valachi says Luciano had a "very good connection" to Italian LE and was tipped off. He acted nice to Giannini so that he wouldn't act suspicious. When Giannini came back to the US, he apparently told agents that he shouldn't have met with Luciano as he felt that Luciano knew he was a rat.

- When Valachi finally got the contract to kill Giannini, Bender asked him who he was going to use and Valachi said he didn't know, which irritated Bender, but Valachi wanted to give the impression that he had a lot of hitters at his disposal and was trying to choose. He said he would eventually have to tell Bender who he used, though, as the guys on the hit team would become proposed members as a result.

- Giannini had not known Luciano when they were both in the US and had never met him before visiting his house in Italy while he was informing. He was taken to Luciano's house by a mutual friend.

- The Lucchese family claimed that Paulie Hamm had given Giannini a job at the game where he was murdered because they themselves were setting him up. Apparently Bender and/or Genovese lied about the Luccheses not being able to find Giannini because they wanted to be the ones to kill him. Afterward Bender/Genovese played dumb about the whole thing and a couple of weeks later asked Valachi to attend a sitdown at Genovese's son-in-law's bar in NJ. Vinnie (Mauro?) apparently helped smooth it over.

- Valachi says that Vito didn't start forcing him to do his dirty work "until Tom Gagliano". I would guess this means after Gagliano died.

- He says a "law was passed" in 1948 that none of Frank Costello's family can be involved with heroin.

[B.]

- Valachi distanced himself from Pat Pagano because Pagano was trying to get close to Tony Bender. Later when Valachi and Pagano were in Atlanta prison together they continued to have issues and Pagano blamed Valachi for his problems. By this time Valachi was also having problems with his nephew Fiore and Joe Pagano. He felt that new guys weren't showing respect for their sponsor and wanted to advance in the mob at any cost. For example, he says that Joe Pagano and his partner Fiore were taking all of their business deals to Tommy Ryan and not including Valachi.

- Valachi says that Joe Pagano "testified" against him in an "underworld trial" that Genovese had Tommy Ryan conduct while Genovese and Valachi were in Atlanta. Frank Costello told Valachi about this, so Valachi went to Genovese who blamed it on Costello.

- When the Gap began working with agents and came back to the US, the Italian mob sent someone (not sure if it was a member of the Sicilian mafia or what) on the same boat to warn the US mob about him. Valachi had apparently called the Gap a rat a year earlier and had to go to a sitdown because of it and he was trying to figure out if the Gap knew that.

- When the Gap got back to the US and tried to go to his house, his wife jumped out of the window and he chased her and beat her. He forced her to tell him that Valachi had called him a rat. Not sure how she knew that info. Valachi felt that the Gap was trying to get him alone so he could kill him.

[B.]

- Valachi claims that Vito Agueci wanted revenge on his boss Stefano Magaddino because he had killed Albert Agueci. When Valachi was serving time with Albert, Albert supposedly told him that if Magaddino didn't post his bail he and his brother (Vito) would put Magaddino on the carpet. By this he meant that he was going to go to the other bosses and tell tham that Magaddino was in the heroin business. He felt that because Magaddino was a partner with the Agueci brothers in the heroin business he should have posted their bail. Valachi warned him that he would be killed, which is what happened.

- Apparently it was in the papers that Vinnie Mauro visits the District Attorney's office every day and LE were trying to spin a story that he was cooperating. Valachi pointed out to Vito Genovese that Vinnie Mauro and Frank (?) were not running around implicating their boss in the heroin business like the Agueci brothers had done. This rumor continued to persist however and after Valachi flipped the agents he spoke to believed that Mauro was cooperating with the DA. Valachi however continued to defend Mauro.

- Johnny Dio frequently talked about Hoffa in prison and talked about how if Kennedy won the presidential election "we would be ruined". Joe Beck, Frank Costello, and Vito Genovese also rooted against Kennedy. Valachi says he never would have made a move like he did if it weren't for Kennedy.

- Valachi was asked to give his opinion on a book LE had compiled with 237 names called "Mafia" but refused to comment until later. This is probably the "Mafia" FBN book that was finally published a few years back that many of us own.

- LE told Valachi that they had three other witnesses aside from Valachi and one of them apparently had information on the Anastasia murder. This guy was out on bail and survived an attempted murder where he was shot in the foot. The witness had his own gun and returned fire. Apparently this witness was the guy who supplied the guns used in the Anastasia murder. The agents tried to arrange for Valachi to meet him so they could play cards together but Valachi refused. The DA apparently didn't buy the guy's story about Anastasia.

And that's all I got. You can read more here... I sifted through what I thought was pertinent:
http://mafiahistory.us/a023/therealthing.htm

[Sol]

Awesome B., best way to read. .......Soliai

[Antiliar]

It was an inside joke. That little nugget of info was from Balsamo's Under the Clock book.


Pogo

You paid more attention to that book than I did LOL

[Pogo The Clown]

It was an inside joke. That little nugget of info was from Balsamo's Under the Clock book.

You paid more attention to that book than I did LOL

It was one of the first books I read when I first started getting into the mob. Although we know it is almost total fiction it is really entertaining fiction. Especially the first half dealing with Frankie Yale, the Black Handers and the war with the Irish White Hand gang.

I don't know.
In 1920 Clemente said NY had 3000 members, same era Gentile quoted 2000.
One 1940's informant said the Bonannos had 40 members.
One 70's informant said Gambino had 75 captains.

The members themselves disagree almost as much as the experts do.

Masseria has 700 Soldiers. Maranzano has 600. Either one finds out you exist they'll crush you like an ant.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

It was an inside joke. That little nugget of info was from Balsamo's Under the Clock book.

You paid more attention to that book than I did LOL

It was one of the first books I read when I first started getting into the mob. Although we know it is almost total fiction it is really entertaining fiction. Especially the first half dealing with Frankie Yale, the Black Handers and the war with the Irish White Hand gang.

I don't know.
In 1920 Clemente said NY had 3000 members, same era Gentile quoted 2000.
One 1940's informant said the Bonannos had 40 members.
One 70's informant said Gambino had 75 captains.

The members themselves disagree almost as much as the experts do.

Masseria has 700 Soldiers. Maranzano has 600. Either one finds out you exist they'll crush you like an ant.


Pogo

Masseria and Maranzano must have used bullhorns to give orders since the structure wasn't formed until after the war.