20s to 90s Chicago had almost 200 made members?

[Camo]

Though it may not have been clear in how he phrased it, I think Pete was saying the Outfit had 200 at its peak. But I don't think Pete is saying the peak was in the 1990s. The Outfit having 125 members in the 1990s is unlikely given the info we have. And I'm not saying 70 was their peak. That's just what the Chicago Crime Commission estimated in 1997. The Outfit likely had more members in previous decades. Now how big had they been in the 50s, 60s, 70s? That's up for debate and it's hard to pin down.

Well then he needs to be more clear.

I know he knows the outfit fairly well, that is why I was shocked when I read that statement.

I am more focusing on his statement regarding the 90's since it is a bit more clear than earlier periods of time and there is more to go off of.

He doesn't need to be more clear, you got his point right away. This was your first post in response to him:

You got me!

Chicago clearly has comparable numbers to NY, lmao

At their Peak Chcago had 200 made members or close to?

I would love to see a list.

Please post it.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Ah Chicago, the other 'detroit' of mafia threads.

[Camo]

I don't think anything that dumb has been posted on this site about Chicago in a while. It's not GBB where a large amount of the members are actually fans of the mafia and some random coming in saying Chicago has 200 made men and thousands of associates is met with applause.

Snakes recent posts especially were outstanding and i think they were somewhat overshadowed by the discussion of whether Chicago is more evil than New York which is completely unanswerable and mostly boring.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I don't think anything that dumb has been posted on this site about Chicago in a while. It's not GBB where a large amount of the members are actually fans of the mafia and some random coming in saying Chicago has 200 made men and thousands of associates is met with applause.

Chicago's size has been debated since Moses wore short pants.
As is Detroits.

Learn to take a joke ya fuckin sook.

[Camo]

I don't think anything that dumb has been posted on this site about Chicago in a while. It's not GBB where a large amount of the members are actually fans of the mafia and some random coming in saying Chicago has 200 made men and thousands of associates is met with applause.

Chicago's size has been debated since Moses wore short pants.
As is Detroits.

Learn to take a joke ya fuckin sook.For

Yeah, i'm not sure what quoting The Sopranos will achieve but whatever.

[Camo]

I don't think anything that dumb has been posted on this site about Chicago in a while. It's not GBB where a large amount of the members are actually fans of the mafia and some random coming in saying Chicago has 200 made men and thousands of associates is met with applause.

Chicago's size has been debated since Moses wore short pants.
As is Detroits.

Learn to take a joke ya fuckin sook.

Please stop talking like you are 'street', jesus christ.

Your jokes aren't funny, they are recycled PB puns, it's depressing.

[HairyKnuckles]

Snakes is an excellent poster. He and Villain both have great overall knowledge of the Chicago outfit. I wish I had half of their knowledge so I could participate in their threads.

With that being said...guys,let me remind you to keep the discussions clean in this section. If you feel like bashing it out, take it to the Graveyard section.

[Camo]

Yeah, dunno how to delete posts or i would. I stick by what i said but there's no point in saying it on a site with so much info.

Sorry, for my antagonistic posts there delete them if you want.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Your jokes aren't funny, they are recycled PB puns, it's depressing.

They're recycled Sopranos puns!


You'd have gone and hurt Pogos feelings there.

[Pogo The Clown]

Chicago's size has been debated since Moses wore short pants.
As is Detroits.

That is as long as Philly's been putting pressure on the shy business and as long as Bobby Baccalieri Sr's been smoking those camels.


Pogo

[Villain]

I’m not trying to start any shit but this thread got me thinking and I quickly made this list of Outfit members during its peak (I picked the 1950 and 60’s) and to try and make some conclusion…


Members which I believe were made before 1950’s and after that were considered the top administration for the whole organization. Some of these guys were deported or retired during this period or some were brought back from retirement. Also some died or were killed or even jailed during the same time and were possibly replaced by other members. Here they are:


1. Paul Ricca
2. Louis Campagna
3. Charles Fischetti
4. Rocco Fischetti
5. Ralph Capone
6. John Capone
7. Tony Capezio
8. Ross Prio
9. Tony Pinelli
10. Dominick Roberto
11. Jim Emery
12. Frank LaPorte
13. Phil D’Andrea
14. Rocco DeGrazia
15. Bruno Roti
16. Joe Fusco
17. James Adduci
18. John Roberto
19. Louis Fratto
20. John Roselli
21. Nick Circella
22. Frank Maritote
23. Charles Gioe
24. Tony Accardo
25. Sam Giancana
26. Sam Battaglia
27. Marshall Caifano
28. Frank Ferraro
29. Joey Aiuppa


Other members which some were also considered as top administration but still I believe it is possible that some of them were also previously made and held special positions within the organization and usually had higher authority over some of the members. Again, some of these fellas were killed or jailed during the same time period:

30. Dominick Nuccio
31. Dominick DiBella
32. Rocco Pranno
33. Jack Cerone
34. Pat Marcy
35. Joe DiVarco
36. Jimmy Allegretti
37. Phil Alderisio
38. Charles Nicoletti
39. Sam English
40. Charles English
41. Sam DeStefano
42. Guido DeChiaro
43. Ned Bakes
44. William Aloisio
45. Jimmy Catuara
46. Leonard Gianola
47. Leonard Caifano
48. Vincent Ioli
49. Rocco DeStefano
50. Pat Manno
51. Ralph Buglio
52. Butch Blasi
53. Joe Amato
54. Sharky Eulo
55. Rocco Potenza
56. Sam Rosa
57. Joey Glimco
58. Joe Mendino
59. Richard Scalzetti
60. Tony D’Andrea
61. Romeo Nappi
62. John Lardino
Fred Roti


Other possible made members during the 1950’s and 60’s, and again some of these fellas were killed or jailed during the same time period:

63. Mario DeStefano
64. Tony Spilotro
65. Joseph Lombardo
66. Angelo LaPietra
67. Frank Buccieri
68. Joseph Lisciandrello
69. Frank Lisciandrello
70. Charles DiCaro
71. John DeBiase
72. Frank Tornabene
73. Mike Glitta
74. Joseph Capizzi
75. Tony DeMonte
76. Dominic Brancato
77. Armando Fosco
78. Louis Ciriona
79. Vince Solano
80. Larry Buonaguidi
81. Augie Circella
82. Sam Parde
83. Nicky Visco
84. Queenie Simonelli
85. Willie Messino
86. Ernest Sansone
87. Sam Marcelli
88. Joe Amabile
89. Rocco Salvatore
90. Joe Rocco
91. Ben Fillichio
92. Pasquale Clementi
93. John Zitto
94. Paul Labriola
95. Albert Frabotta
96. Louis Briatta
97. Louis Tornabene
98. Charles Bertucci
99. Nick Garambone
100. Tony Maenza
101. Morris Caruso
102. Sam Cesario
103. Frank Fratto
104. Robert Ansani
105. Bucky Ortenzi
106. Larry Rassano
107. Carl Fiorito
108. Leonard Calamia
109. James Torello
110. George Tuffanelli
111. Joe Guzzino
112. Tommy Morgano
113. Frank Zizzo
114. Tony Gruttadauro
115. John Formosa
116. Donald Angelini
117. Eco Coli
118. Dominic Cortina
119. Vincent Inserro
120. James Mirro
121. Sam Mesi
122. Dominic Palermo
123. Angelo Volpe
124. Joe Ferriola
125. Frank Cerone
126. Pasquale Accettura
127. Carmen Apicella
128. John Mattassa
129. Ted DeRose
130. Nick Palermo
131. John Varelli
132. Emil Crovedi
133. Rocco Montagna
134. Armand D’Andrea
135. Al Pilotto
John Nicastro

I probably forgot some members or maybe I’m wrong about some, and probably Snakes can help me out, but lets say that during its peak or should I say during the 1950’s and 60’s, the Outfit’s Italian membership was over 100 individuals. Now I say “Italian” mainly because these guys belonged to both the Chicago Outfit and Cosa Nostra, which at the time was a national Italian crime syndicate BUT as we know that the Outfit was quite different from the rest of the national crime families, meaning the Chi boys also had many non-Italians as members of the organization, which few were placed on top and mid level positions. These non-Italian fellas were not members of the national Cosa Nostra organization but still they belonged to the Chicago syndicate and were involved in the everyday affairs to its highest levels. Also during that period some of these guys were retired, killed, died of natural causes or some operated in different states and cities. Here they are:

144. Murray Humphreys
145. Jake Guzik
146. Sam Hunt
147. Ralph Pierce
148. Les Kruse
149. Sam Alex
150. Gus Alex
151. Gus Zapas
152. Hyman Larner
153. Joe Epstein
154. Lenny Patrick
154. Jack Patrick
155. Dave Yaras
156. Sam Yaras
157. Louis Arger
158. Phil Katz
159. Julius Epstein
160. Sam Gearis
161. Hy Godfrey
162. Mickey Farr
163. Peter Tremont
164. Arthur Markovitz aka Louis Markle
165. Claude Maddox
166. Joseph Corngold
167. John Varlas
168. William Johnson
169. William Goldstein
170. Ken Eto
171. Joe Arnold
172. Irving Dworetzky aka Dworett
173. Aaron Oberlander
174. Mandel Skar
175. George Bravos
176. Nick Bravos
177. Pete Arnstein
178. Gus Liebe
179. John Drew
180. Louis Lederer
181. Ben Epstein
182. Paul Dorfman
183. William Block
184. Morris Goldstein
185. Frank Rosenthal
186. Leo Rugendorf
187. Irv Weiner
188. John Wolek
189. Francis Curry
190. Eddie Vogel
191. William Vogel
192. Tom Smith
193. Alex Ross
194. Guy Sparta


So my point is that if we mix all together the Italian and the non-Italian members, we just might create an approximate number(for example 200) regarding the membership within the Outfit, during its peak. Also, my opinion is that the number 300 is a little bit too much but we cannot know for sure…

[willychichi]

I’m not trying to start any shit but this thread got me thinking and I quickly made this list of Outfit members during its peak (I picked the 1950 and 60’s) and to try and make some conclusion…


Members which I believe were made before 1950’s and after that were considered the top administration for the whole organization. Some of these guys were deported or retired during this period or some were brought back from retirement. Also some died or were killed or even jailed during the same time and were possibly replaced by other members. Here they are:


1. Paul Ricca
2. Louis Campagna
3. Charles Fischetti
4. Rocco Fischetti
5. Ralph Capone
6. John Capone
7. Tony Capezio
8. Ross Prio
9. Tony Pinelli
10. Dominick Roberto
11. Jim Emery
12. Frank LaPorte
13. Phil D’Andrea
14. Rocco DeGrazia
15. Bruno Roti
16. Joe Fusco
17. James Adduci
18. John Roberto
19. Louis Fratto
20. John Roselli
21. Nick Circella
22. Frank Maritote
23. Charles Gioe
24. Tony Accardo
25. Sam Giancana
26. Sam Battaglia
27. Marshall Caifano
28. Frank Ferraro
29. Joey Aiuppa


Other members which some were also considered as top administration but still I believe it is possible that some of them were also previously made and held special positions within the organization and usually had higher authority over some of the members. Again, some of these fellas were killed or jailed during the same time period:

30. Dominick Nuccio
31. Dominick DiBella
32. Rocco Pranno
33. Jack Cerone
34. Pat Marcy
35. Joe DiVarco
36. Jimmy Allegretti
37. Phil Alderisio
38. Charles Nicoletti
39. Sam English
40. Charles English
41. Sam DeStefano
42. Guido DeChiaro
43. Ned Bakes
44. William Aloisio
45. Jimmy Catuara
46. Leonard Gianola
47. Leonard Caifano
48. Vincent Ioli
49. Rocco DeStefano
50. Pat Manno
51. Ralph Buglio
52. Butch Blasi
53. Joe Amato
54. Sharky Eulo
55. Rocco Potenza
56. Sam Rosa
57. Joey Glimco
58. Joe Mendino
59. Richard Scalzetti
60. Tony D’Andrea
61. Romeo Nappi
62. John Lardino
Fred Roti


Other possible made members during the 1950’s and 60’s, and again some of these fellas were killed or jailed during the same time period:

63. Mario DeStefano
64. Tony Spilotro
65. Joseph Lombardo
66. Angelo LaPietra
67. Frank Buccieri
68. Joseph Lisciandrello
69. Frank Lisciandrello
70. Charles DiCaro
71. John DeBiase
72. Frank Tornabene
73. Mike Glitta
74. Joseph Capizzi
75. Tony DeMonte
76. Dominic Brancato
77. Armando Fosco
78. Louis Ciriona
79. Vince Solano
80. Larry Buonaguidi
81. Augie Circella
82. Sam Parde
83. Nicky Visco
84. Queenie Simonelli
85. Willie Messino
86. Ernest Sansone
87. Sam Marcelli
88. Joe Amabile
89. Rocco Salvatore
90. Joe Rocco
91. Ben Fillichio
92. Pasquale Clementi
93. John Zitto
94. Paul Labriola
95. Albert Frabotta
96. Louis Briatta
97. Louis Tornabene
98. Charles Bertucci
99. Nick Garambone
100. Tony Maenza
101. Morris Caruso
102. Sam Cesario
103. Frank Fratto
104. Robert Ansani
105. Bucky Ortenzi
106. Larry Rassano
107. Carl Fiorito
108. Leonard Calamia
109. James Torello
110. George Tuffanelli
111. Joe Guzzino
112. Tommy Morgano
113. Frank Zizzo
114. Tony Gruttadauro
115. John Formosa
116. Donald Angelini
117. Eco Coli
118. Dominic Cortina
119. Vincent Inserro
120. James Mirro
121. Sam Mesi
122. Dominic Palermo
123. Angelo Volpe
124. Joe Ferriola
125. Frank Cerone
126. Pasquale Accettura
127. Carmen Apicella
128. John Mattassa
129. Ted DeRose
130. Nick Palermo
131. John Varelli
132. Emil Crovedi
133. Rocco Montagna
134. Armand D’Andrea
135. Al Pilotto
John Nicastro

I probably forgot some members or maybe I’m wrong about some, and probably Snakes can help me out, but lets say that during its peak or should I say during the 1950’s and 60’s, the Outfit’s Italian membership was over 100 individuals. Now I say “Italian” mainly because these guys belonged to both the Chicago Outfit and Cosa Nostra, which at the time was a national Italian crime syndicate BUT as we know that the Outfit was quite different from the rest of the national crime families, meaning the Chi boys also had many non-Italians as members of the organization, which few were placed on top and mid level positions. These non-Italian fellas were not members of the national Cosa Nostra organization but still they belonged to the Chicago syndicate and were involved in the everyday affairs to its highest levels. Also during that period some of these guys were retired, killed, died of natural causes or some operated in different states and cities. Here they are:

144. Murray Humphreys
145. Jake Guzik
146. Sam Hunt
147. Ralph Pierce
148. Les Kruse
149. Sam Alex
150. Gus Alex
151. Gus Zapas
152. Hyman Larner
153. Joe Epstein
154. Lenny Patrick
154. Jack Patrick
155. Dave Yaras
156. Sam Yaras
157. Louis Arger
158. Phil Katz
159. Julius Epstein
160. Sam Gearis
161. Hy Godfrey
162. Mickey Farr
163. Peter Tremont
164. Arthur Markovitz aka Louis Markle
165. Claude Maddox
166. Joseph Corngold
167. John Varlas
168. William Johnson
169. William Goldstein
170. Ken Eto
171. Joe Arnold
172. Irving Dworetzky aka Dworett
173. Aaron Oberlander
174. Mandel Skar
175. George Bravos
176. Nick Bravos
177. Pete Arnstein
178. Gus Liebe
179. John Drew
180. Louis Lederer
181. Ben Epstein
182. Paul Dorfman
183. William Block
184. Morris Goldstein
185. Frank Rosenthal
186. Leo Rugendorf
187. Irv Weiner
188. John Wolek
189. Francis Curry
190. Eddie Vogel
191. William Vogel
192. Tom Smith
193. Alex Ross
194. Guy Sparta


So my point is that if we mix all together the Italian and the non-Italian members, we just might create an approximate number(for example 200) regarding the membership within the Outfit, during its peak. Also, my opinion is that the number 300 is a little bit too much but we cannot know for sure…

Nice work Villain, thanks for sharing it with us.

[Snakes]

Yeah, those Outfit numbers are about on par with the three smaller NYC families, which I believe is as high as the LCN membership for Chicago got. Good list, Villain. Faithful would probably be able to contribute a little more regarding that time period than I would.

[Antiliar]

This is a possible explanation for the 300 number in the FBI report, assuming that it's accurate. I personally take no position on the actual figure since I don't know.

It's worth pointing out that when Salvatore Maranzano recognized Al Capone as the Chicago fratellanza boss, that ended the career of the figurehead Mafia boss, Toto Lo Verde. So that means that many of made Chicago Mafiosi had to give their allegiance to Capone. Quite a few chose not to, and moved to Rockford, Springfield, Milwaukee, Madison or even New Jersey. For those that chose to remain, I imagine most were put on the shelf. So we don't know what this number is. We don't know how many were incorporated into the Outfit. For how many they were, there were officially on the books until they died or transferred. That could have resulted in a high number like 300 up into the early sixties, but almost none of them were active. There were also members unknown to much of law enforcement, called "sleepers." There was one individual (unfortunately I cannot recall his name right now) who was a previously unknown Outfit member who celebrated his 100th birthday, suggesting that he was one of those who accepted the new Capone regime.

On the other hand, some Outfit guys who we think were made many not have been. Some sources seem to indicate that Joe Fusco was made, and others that he wasn't. Some think Richard Cain and Harry Aleman were made; many think Cain was, most think Aleman wasn't. The same applies to Marco D'Amico today. The point is, there are a lot of variables and a lot of unknowns. We shouldn't expect that that we will ever have a comprehensive list of made members, so we shouldn't automatically rule out a high number as impossible when it is very possible.

[Lupara]

Yeah, those Outfit numbers are about on par with the three smaller NYC families, which I believe is as high as the LCN membership for Chicago got. Good list, Villain. Faithful would probably be able to contribute a little more regarding that time period than I would.

I think the peak membership for the three smaller five families was a little higher though, may have been close to 200 members.

Great list by Villain!