THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Villain wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:18 am

B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:45 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:04 am

B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:59 amVast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

What are we basing that on? We've all seen the news articles about Rosotti and Staluppi donating to Bush back in the day. And the online gossip about some Philly guys liking Trump. But those are the only ones I can think of off hand. Traditionally at least, the connection was overwhelmingly with the Democratic political machine. Due, in no small part, to the unions. I'm not saying there hasn't been any change over the years. And like Capeci has said, most of them have a certain amount of patriotism, ironically enough. And are conservative in many ways, though I think that's due more to the Italian heritage and Catholicism than anything related to the Republican Party.

Cruise through their social media accounts and those of their family/friends. Look at their longstanding history going back to Sicily. Most of the guys who have podcasts lean right if they're not full-blown Republicans.

Some early Sicilian mafiosi supported the Fascist Party before Mussolini started targeting them. The mafia was involved in all kinds of anti-socialist activity in Sicily, sometimes violently.

It's a fundamentally conservative organization and that is usually (but not always) reflected in who they support. Their self-interest is of course #1 and transcends politics if they feel any party/politician/group isn't serving them properly.

I consider the mafia extremely socially conservative and economically libertarian in theory, with their economics being obviously corrupt and self-serving which libertarian policies are naturally subject to (making them more attractive as a "philosophy" than an actual "policy").

Just to add to this, on Frank Fiordilino's most recent MBA episode he says in his experience the mafia is heavily right wing and if you asked "600 wiseguys" they would have all voted for Trump.

Tom seemed confused because he said the Republican party is the "law and order" party, but I think there's confusion from outsiders over this aspect. Harry Riccobene and Nino Calderone both said the mafia supported the Fascist Party's initial crackdown on common criminals and really only became upset when Mussolini and Mori went after the mafia. I would bet the current New York Families have no problem with local LE going after other ethnic gangs and unaffiliated criminals, too.

I think the mafia's attitude on "law and order" is more self-serving than it is absolute. When Nick Piccolo had his business broken into in Philly he called the police to investigate because it was done by outsiders and he kept his captain position. Angelo Bruno had no issue with it.

You have exceptions with politics like Cascio Ferro being involved with anarchists and Bernardo Verro being a socialist, but Verro was apparently inducted because Corleone thought they could use his influence over workers and later killed him. The mafia leans right even in Sicilian mafia history. It makes sense too because hardline socialism is completely at odds with self-governance and the free market, which the mafia corrupts but requires to operate. The mafia is by its nature anti-federal which puts it at odds with leftism. Obviously the hardline social conservativism of the mafia doesn't work with leftism either.

There was a member source, I think one of the San Jose CIs, who said the mafia can exist anywhere except Communist countries.

The Sopranos' portrayal of these guys wasn't perfect, but they nailed the political opinions of Tony and his crew.

B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:17 pm Tom seemed confused because he said the Republican party is the "law and order" party, but I think there's confusion from outsiders over this aspect. Harry Riccobene and Nino Calderone both said the mafia supported the Fascist Party's initial crackdown on common criminals and really only became upset when Mussolini and Mori went after the mafia. I would bet the current New York Families have no problem with local LE going after other ethnic gangs and unaffiliated criminals, too.

I think the mafia's attitude on "law and order" is more self-serving than it is absolute. When Nick Piccolo had his business broken into in Philly he called the police to investigate because it was done by outsiders and he kept his captain position. Angelo Bruno had no issue with it.

B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:45 pm

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:04 am

B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:59 amVast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

What are we basing that on? We've all seen the news articles about Rosotti and Staluppi donating to Bush back in the day. And the online gossip about some Philly guys liking Trump. But those are the only ones I can think of off hand. Traditionally at least, the connection was overwhelmingly with the Democratic political machine. Due, in no small part, to the unions. I'm not saying there hasn't been any change over the years. And like Capeci has said, most of them have a certain amount of patriotism, ironically enough. And are conservative in many ways, though I think that's due more to the Italian heritage and Catholicism than anything related to the Republican Party.

Cruise through their social media accounts and those of their family/friends. Look at their longstanding history going back to Sicily. Most of the guys who have podcasts lean right if they're not full-blown Republicans.

Some early Sicilian mafiosi supported the Fascist Party before Mussolini started targeting them. The mafia was involved in all kinds of anti-socialist activity in Sicily, sometimes violently.

It's a fundamentally conservative organization and that is usually (but not always) reflected in who they support. Their self-interest is of course #1 and transcends politics if they feel any party/politician/group isn't serving them properly.

I consider the mafia extremely socially conservative and economically libertarian in theory, with their economics being obviously corrupt and self-serving which libertarian policies are naturally subject to (making them more attractive as a "philosophy" than an actual "policy").

UTC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:10 pm

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:55 pm Some great info here @ Villian....

I wanna look at some contemporary examples... to illustrate the criminality aspect over the legitimate....


1. Arrilotta - Made guy. West Side, the " Ivey League".
You know what threw me about this guy? He got involved in the streets, he himself said he didnt give education much interest. He gets in debt 100k to a shylock, then he just....... goes and ask his Dad for the 100k. Then proceeds to say his Dad had a very successful flower business.

Now, I was confused, like..... why didnt you just go into the family's LEGITIMATE BUSINESS? Or at least, try to expand it? If he wasnt into flowers, he coulda went to his DAD, not a LOANSHARK, for the 100k and started a legit business. No, he goes to the streets. And not a Union racket, or gambling either. No, he goes and sell the Mexican brick weed.

2. Leandro Greco - Scion of a mafia dynasty in Sicily.... but the son of a law abiding citizen. His father didnt get involved in crime, and instead became I think, a movie director.

Leandro however, takes after his Grandfather, Michele and becomes the latest in the line of Greco clan bosses.
I doubt the clan threw its resources and full support behind the elder Grecos film endeavors. Hes probably looked at as a " civilian". Leandro could have run for public office, anything. He became a mafiosi.

Whom do we think holds the greater respect? The citizen? Or the Boss?


3. Paolo Bontade - again, son of a mafia Scion. Could run for Mayor probably, or started ANYTHING legit, but his name pops up in criminal investigations.


4. Leonardo Rizzuto - Scion of a powerful mafiosi. An actual lawyer, but just couldnt stay legitimate. Hell, same with the construction based murdered son, Nick jr.

5. The Campos thing - One of the reasons that indictment is silly to me is the inveterate "Hoodlumness"
of it. They couldnt just run a construction company, they had to shit where they ate.

What they did, is what I would expect if you put the typical gang leader in that position. Instead of trying to leverage the next 80 million dollar deal, you worried about floor tiles and a new bathroom.

Even that Hootie guy. Said he got a union job at like 18, in the PJs, I think. Decent money. I'm like, so why you still selling drugs?

There are also some common personality traits found in criminals that may help to explain these seemingly unexpected developments. Anti-social mindset, impulse control, narcissism, attention deficit, power centric thinking, etc. It's not all social conditioning. Greco's situation reminds me of Amongst Friends.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:55 pm Some great info here @ Villian....

I wanna look at some contemporary examples... to illustrate the criminality aspect over the legitimate....


1. Arrilotta - Made guy. West Side, the " Ivey League".
You know what threw me about this guy? He got involved in the streets, he himself said he didnt give education much interest. He gets in debt 100k to a shylock, then he just....... goes and ask his Dad for the 100k. Then proceeds to say his Dad had a very successful flower business.

Now, I was confused, like..... why didnt you just go into the family's LEGITIMATE BUSINESS? Or at least, try to expand it? If he wasnt into flowers, he coulda went to his DAD, not a LOANSHARK, for the 100k and started a legit business. No, he goes to the streets. And not a Union racket, or gambling either. No, he goes and sell the Mexican brick weed.

2. Leandro Greco - Scion of a mafia dynasty in Sicily.... but the son of a law abiding citizen. His father didnt get involved in crime, and instead became I think, a movie director.

Leandro however, takes after his Grandfather, Michele and becomes the latest in the line of Greco clan bosses.
I doubt the clan threw its resources and full support behind the elder Grecos film endeavors. Hes probably looked at as a " civilian". Leandro could have run for public office, anything. He became a mafiosi.

Whom do we think holds the greater respect? The citizen? Or the Boss?


3. Paolo Bontade - again, son of a mafia Scion. Could run for Mayor probably, or started ANYTHING legit, but his name pops up in criminal investigations.


4. Leonardo Rizzuto - Scion of a powerful mafiosi. An actual lawyer, but just couldnt stay legitimate. Hell, same with the construction based murdered son, Nick jr.

5. The Campos thing - One of the reasons that indictment is silly to me is the inveterate "Hoodlumness"
of it. They couldnt just run a construction company, they had to shit where they ate.

What they did, is what I would expect if you put the typical gang leader in that position. Instead of trying to leverage the next 80 million dollar deal, you worried about floor tiles and a new bathroom.

Even that Hootie guy. Said he got a union job at like 18, in the PJs, I think. Decent money. I'm like, so why you still selling drugs?

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:25 am Wiseguy, didn't I make you laugh or even smile just a little bit with that Joe Bonanno reference regarding his involvement with drugs?

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:10 am

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:23 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:35 pm ...because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

Absolutely! I couldn´t agree more. And it´s not like Paul Castellano (for example) ordered a brokster member of his Family to go out and rob someone because that is what he is "supposed" to do.

And yet, you had a guy like Castellano get chastised by a guy like Chin, precisely for using the Commision, the mafias decision making apparatus, for the managing of criminal operations directly like the Construction rackets.


We really could do this all day.......

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:23 am
I love Ebolis article on Catena. Did you read the part on his attempts to get into something as harmless as DETERGENT? This to me is mafia " Legitimacy" in a nutshell.


I saw Hairy's post about how Castellano would never order you to commit a robbery. Then I cant help but remember Gotti ordering the reopening of the pipeline, or that Calderone book, where the Ercolano kid gets made, at the ceremony they tell him, " You cant steal", and hes like, " What?.... but I steal." And the guys like, "No, you misunderstand, you can steal..." ..

Let's take out the crime part. What is the PURPOSE of the mafia at that point? The overarching strategy, the actual goal of the organization? What methodology do they use to gain power?